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[MetalSlimeHunt]

And what good does a specific national identity do you? Will it feed the hungry? Will it heal the sick? Will it make men free? Will it help us save ourselves?

I find your assessment of value lacking.

[RedKing]

The younger generations, those who are too young to remember the Iron Curtain, those tend to oppose the EU. Not a value judgement, just an observation.

This is wrong. The opposition isn't just among the youngest generation. Your professor was probably a unionist schweinhund. Seeming as Germany is one of those countries who don't give a damn about the laws except when it benefits them, it wouldn't surprise me if he has a fundamentally skewed view of how the EU works because of that.

Whoa, dude....dial back on the fury. Actually, he was pessimistic that it would ever work long-term and found it "cute" that Americans were so optimistic about the EU. Though he tried his best to keep his attitudes out of the instruction (his personal views were obtained over pints of beer at the bar across the street after class).

I'm personally in favor of greater European integration, but that's easy for me to do as a non-resident. I figure it'll help counterbalance the US when we're at our dumbest, and help the US when the chips are really down. Certainly in the 1990's, there was enthusiasm in the US for the European Union because it saves us time and money for Europe to be able to deal with shit on their turf rather than us doing it (plus, many Americans secretly wished for less geography to have to learn...)

You might as well favour greater American integration into China or Russia.

Por quoi? I could see the analogy if you had said North American Union (which I wouldn't be that opposed to), but forming a trans-continental integration doesn't make sense. Integrating a number of smaller polities on the same landmass (ok, Scandinavia and the UK can argue they're not on the same landmass) does make sense, at least to me.

I realize that the EU elicits strong opinions, but dang...

[Thecard]

And what good does a specific national identity do you? Will it feed the hungry? Will it heal the sick? Will it make men free? Will it help us save ourselves?

I find your assessment of value lacking.

It did save Europe before.  The diversity caused them to innovate, to grow.  That is less useful now, but it has helped them.

And, last I heard, they didn't have slaves in Europe either.

[misko27]

While I believe that Wurope would be far stronger, and greater then the sum of it's parts, if it moved towards centralization, It is newver going to happen. No. Nyet. Nein. For, as some have pointed out, years of language difference, and in some cases thousands of years of national identity and culture. Remember the Yugoslav wars? That's what happens when you try that on a lower scale. God help us should you try it on a continent

And, of course, theres the argument of what constitutes Europe. For example, If you include, say, the Balkans, there's the question of whther it's even possible to pacify the region. If we include former russian sattelite states, there's the question of where their loyalty lies, to Russia, or Europe? And that is occuring while the EU powerplays goes on, with weaker nations filibustering any attempts of stronger nations (alla germany, who is seen as dominating) to move towards centralization of the banking system. that's solely a economic thing. If you bring Culture, and Laws, and all that good stuff in, no way.

Frankly, it's impossible unless you want to invade every single country and force it on them. Not that that will even hold.

[da_nang]

And what good does a specific national identity do you? Will it feed the hungry? Will it heal the sick? Will it make men free? Will it help us save ourselves?

It makes this less epic.

[Darvi]

And what good does a specific national identity do you? Will it feed the hungry? Will it heal the sick? Will it make men free? Will it help us save ourselves?

I find your assessment of value lacking.

People can be, and frequently are, stupid. This is a fact.

[MonkeyHead]

Ah, but its from a shared identity that sound statehood is formed. A larger Bloc formed from states with little in the way of shared culture or values will hardly be able to operate as more than the sum of its parts and instead would be riddled with petty infighting.

Will it feed the hungry?

No better or worse than a bigger entity.

Will it heal the sick?

*points at the many and varied successful healthcare systems we have, in particular the NHS*. You can keep your medicare.

Will it make men free?

Its doing a pretty good job so far.

[/irony failure]

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm not just talking about Europe there. Europe is already well-fed, healthy, and free. But a lot of the world isn't, and the influence of outside powers can make that change. The most powerful entities of the world need to be ones that value liberty and democracy. The US holds that role for the moment, but that is more likely than not to end before this century does. There needs to be as much contingency as possible against rising authoritarian powers like Russia and China.

A unified Europe could provide such a contingency.

[Thecard]

I'm not just talking about Europe there. Europe is already well-fed, healthy, and free. But a lot of the world isn't, and the influence of outside powers can make that change. The most powerful entities of the world need to be ones that value liberty and democracy. The US holds that role for the moment, but that is more likely than not to end before this century does. There needs to be as much contingency as possible against rising authoritarian powers like Russia and China.

A unified Europe could provide such a contingency.

Europe isn't like a divided US.  It's a bunch of smaller countries, that still have a massive effect on the world.  Just because the US is bigger than, say, England, doesn't mean that we have a lot more power than them.  And since Europe is well-fed, healthy, and free, it is a contingency.  It won't make other countries be like the US, but we are not the only effective government in the world.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Europe isn't like a divided US.  It's a bunch of smaller countries, that still have a massive effect on the world.  Just because the US is bigger than, say, England, doesn't mean that we have a lot more power than them.  And since Europe is well-fed, healthy, and free, it is a contingency.  It won't make other countries be like the US, but we are not the only effective government in the world.

I am aware. However, the fact remains that stacking the power of the nations of Europe would produce a greater contingency than having them all act independently, even if they acted towards the same goal. It is an administrative need more than anything else. Geopolitics is all about influence, and you can't get as much acting separately but similarly than as you can acting together.

[misko27]

I think what he means is that the other nation are large and powerful, while Europe's division makes it hard to be effective against things that threaten them all. Take a pandemic. The US and china could almost instantly Isolate and quarantine affected areas. Europe would suffer.

And finally, theres the Argument from FEMA and Stephen Colbert. Regarding the ability of smaller states to care for themselves, he said "Who better to repair the damage then the state that just had all it's resources and infrastructure swept out to sea?"

[Thecard]

Europe isn't like a divided US.  It's a bunch of smaller countries, that still have a massive effect on the world.  Just because the US is bigger than, say, England, doesn't mean that we have a lot more power than them.  And since Europe is well-fed, healthy, and free, it is a contingency.  It won't make other countries be like the US, but we are not the only effective government in the world.

I am aware. However, the fact remains that stacking the power of the nations of Europe would produce a greater contingency than having them all act independently, even if they acted towards the same goal. It is an administrative need more than anything else. Geopolitics is all about influence, and you can't get as much acting separately but similarly than as you can acting together.

They can be stacked, but really, there's also the problem that they aren't similar.  They have different, government, and different identities.  The would loose that.  What if Canada, and Mexico, and the US formed one confederacy, and we were under Canada's government?  Or Mexico?  Because that's what it would be like.  You just wouldn't feel American without the three branches.  The Brits wouldn't feel British without their queen.  You can't lump a bunch of territories together just because they are in the same general part of the world.  They're very different.  That's how Europe is.  And that is freedom.

And if France suffered from a natural disaster, they would get aid from the rest of Europe.  Nowadays, countries put aside their differences to help out those in need.

[10ebbor10]

I think what he means is that the other nation are large and powerful, while Europe's division makes it hard to be effective against things that threaten them all. Take a pandemic. The US and china could almost instantly Isolate and quarantine affected areas. Europe would suffer.

And finally, theres the Argument from FEMA and Stephen Colbert. Regarding the ability of smaller states to care for themselves, he said "Who better to repair the damage then the state that just had all it's resources and infrastructure swept out to sea?"

Disaster tends to be great ways to unite people quickly. Even a divided Europe would contain the disease. The problem would be afterwards, the diseases, the refugees, impacts on the economies and all that.

Europe isn't like a divided US.  It's a bunch of smaller countries, that still have a massive effect on the world.  Just because the US is bigger than, say, England, doesn't mean that we have a lot more power than them.  And since Europe is well-fed, healthy, and free, it is a contingency.  It won't make other countries be like the US, but we are not the only effective government in the world.

I am aware. However, the fact remains that stacking the power of the nations of Europe would produce a greater contingency than having them all act independently, even if they acted towards the same goal. It is an administrative need more than anything else. Geopolitics is all about influence, and you can't get as much acting separately but similarly than as you can acting together.

They can be stacked, but really, there's also the problem that they aren't similar.  They have different, government, and different identities.  The would loose that.  What if Canada, and Mexico, and the US formed one confederacy, and we were under Canada's government?  Or Mexico?  Because that's what it would be like.  You just wouldn't feel American without the three branches.  The Brits wouldn't feel British without their queen.  You can't lump a bunch of territories together just because they are in the same general part of the world.  They're very different.  That's how Europe is.  And that is freedom.

And if France suffered from a natural disaster, they would get aid from the rest of Europe.  Nowadays, countries put aside their differences to help out those in need.

The EU can have a massive impact on geopolitics, considering it's the number one trading block and number one economical power. Also, many countries still retain influence on their former colonies. It's getting everyone on the same line that often proves problematic.

There's also a reason that the EU's motto is United in diversity. There's no plan to force a cultural amalgation. Just an economopolitical union. No more, no less. On a small scale, you could look towards the Benelux, and the agreements made there. There was a monetary union for a good 10 years between Belgium and Luxemburg, without problems.  However, things don't always scale up nicely, and when someone cheats their numbers the system easily breaks down?

As for the reason d'etre of the EU, you should look at it's history. In origin it was a simple trading organistation for coal/ steel, and in many ways, the EU still fonctions as a trading block. In fact, at this point an internal war is made unlikely by that very fact. The EU is strongly reliant on internal trade and transport, in such a way that many economies can't function on their own. A second reason is an attempt to diminish nationalism, and provide the ability for nations to talk to each other to prevent wars. Europe before the EU was a mess of conflicting treaties, Nap's and rivalizing nations. Many of you know for how little the First world war was started, and everyone knows how devestating they were. Europe used to rule the world in those days, but internal rivalry and conflict brought it down in less than 50 years.

[misko27]

You appear to be severely overestimating the ability of politicians to accomplish anything.

Alse, people don't donate to rich nations struck by disaster. I remember a graphic showing how much money was sent to haiti and japan following their respective earthquakes. Haiti dwarfed japan. It looked more lije the size comparison of jupite versus earth. And the donating you see in the US? That's because it's one country.

Besides, there are four distinct regional cultures in the US, so it's not like total cultural assimalation is needed.

[Thecard]

You appear to be severely overestimating the ability of politicians to accomplish anything.

Alse, people don't donate to rich nations struck by disaster. I remember a graphic showing how much money was sent to haiti and japan following their respective earthquakes. Haiti dwarfed japan. It looked more lije the size comparison of jupite versus earth. And the donating you see in the US? That's because it's one country.

Besides, there are four distinct regional cultures in the US, so it's not like total cultural assimalation is needed.

Countries do donate to their neighbors, as well.
And don't compare US diversity to EU diversity.  Because they're separate countries.  In America, we got rid of all the natives, and became a country that way.  Europe has always had different countries, they've just changed over the many years.