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[MonkeyHead]

Cant speak for people of the older generation than my own, so this observation only really applies to my own generation and those younger. We do not grow up thinking of ourselves as Europoean citizens. Your identity is that of your nation state, which is very different I gather from the US. A Texan is an American. A Californian is an American. A German is a Geman first (insert country of your choice), and European second, if at all. The US was built form the bottom up as a union. The EU has been put together from top down - co-operation, yes. Singular entity, no.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

My opinions on the matter are much like RedKing's, with the addition that the EU rising to superpower status will be a good counter-balance for China's expected rise to superpower status.

MonkeyHead brings up an important point about identity, and here's the issue: Europe needs something to give its people an identity as Europeans first before there is any possibility of greater integration. For example, before the American Revolution the members of the Thirteen Colonies saw themselves as culturally independent of one another, and indeed they were very different. Rhode Island accepted people of every religion and creed, Massachusetts was nearly a theocracy, Georgia was an ex-penal colony, ect. The revolution gave them all a common enemy in the British Empire, and thus an American identity was forged in the fires of revolutionary fervor. If that had not happened the map of North America would be very different today, even if the colonies had still broken away. That is just one example, but we have seen the necessity of forming national identity as a precursor to a greater nation all throughout history.

Obviously Europe will need a different unifying force, and if it does not get one the EU is doomed.

[da_nang]

In order to unify Europe through war, all countries need to participate in that war. Including France.

We're doomed.

[Zrk2]

let's declare war on Australia, that'll sort us out!

You'll need someone bigger, and less crazy if you want it to work... Maybe Russia? Dammit, you tried that already.

[RedKing]

Cant speak for people of the older generation than my own, so this observation only really applies to my own generation and those younger. We do not grow up thinking of ourselves as Europoean citizens. Your identity is that of your nation state, which is very different I gather from the US. A Texan is an American. A Californian is an American. A German is a Geman first (insert country of your choice), and European second, if at all. The US was built form the bottom up as a union. The EU has been put together from top down - co-operation, yes. Singular entity, no.

Yes and no. I have a relatively weak identification with the US, and a very strong one with North Carolina. Some states (Texas, for instance) are known for harboring the same sort of attitude. And honestly, prior to 1865, MANY Americans identified with state over country. It's one of the main reasons why Lee left the Union Army and joined the Virginia militia. That may actually be one of the longest-lasting effects of the US Civil War: It pitted those who identified with state vs. those who identified with country, and the latter won.

So obviously, the solution is a European Union Civil War! We'll only need 100 million or so dead, and what with advances in technology, I'm sure it'll be over by Christmas! 

[MonkeyHead]

We have tried that so many times over the last few thousand years or so, and the victors have never made it stick more than a few hundred years.

[Siquo]

So obviously, the solution is a European Union Civil War! We'll only need 100 million or so dead, and what with advances in technology, I'm sure it'll be over by Christmas! 

Had too many of those already Hitler did get his wish, though: a unified Europe was his ultimate goal.

No, I like it the way it is. We don't need patriotism, or unification. The only thing we need to be wary of is the short term thinkers (who are usually EU opponents, as they fail to see the big picture), but I'm pretty positive we'll overcome that. I like the EU being more loosely coupled than the USA, it prevents missteps and promotes healthy competition between countries (many are looking over the borders how the other members are dealing with certain problems). However, for that continuous competition to remain healthy does require oversight from a rational super-government with the ability to keep the members in line.

[Tylui]

Yes and no. I have a relatively weak identification with the US, and a very strong one with North Carolina. Some states (Texas, for instance) are known for harboring the same sort of attitude. And honestly, prior to 1865, MANY Americans identified with state over country. It's one of the main reasons why Lee left the Union Army and joined the Virginia militia. That may actually be one of the longest-lasting effects of the US Civil War: It pitted those who identified with state vs. those who identified with country, and the latter won.

I was thinking about how to say this, but you did it for me!

The freedom of America was in choosing what state you wanted to live in. "Confederate States" has that concept apparent more-so than "United States"

[Jopax]

I thought the Balkans have meat producing capabilities too low to even support themselves. Which is why we're mostly importing meat (most of it is Turkish I belive).

More on topic tho, a union would be rather boring, everything would just turn kinda samey and meh after a long enough period of time. Just look at the US, imagine what a delightfully crazy that place would have been if it was left in the state most of Africa is today, everyone fending for themselves while still recovering from colonialism in certain places.

[RedKing]

It's still a delightfully crazy place. Seriously, have you *read* some of the election threads??

Besides, America is nowhere as homogenous as it often seems to outsiders. North Carolina is not California is not Texas is not Minnesota. Hell, North Carolina is not even South Carolina (although our state government is trying its damndest to fix that... )

Yes, you can find McDonald's in all of them. Yes, you'll see the same movies available in all of them. But then, I can find McDonald's and Hollywood movies in most of Europe too. It's the local culture, the little roadside places, the oddball regional cuisine, the in-jokes that you only get if you're from "that" town, etc.

I once heard it put best that America isn't a melting pot, it's a stew.

[MonkeyHead]

If the US is a stew, then the EU is Tapaz.

[USEC_OFFICER]

A municipality in the Philippines?

Oh. You probably meant Tapas. Whoops.

[scriver]

My opinions on the matter are much like RedKing's, with the addition that the EU rising to superpower status will be a good counter-balance for China's expected rise to superpower status.

MonkeyHead brings up an important point about identity, and here's the issue: Europe needs something to give its people an identity as Europeans first before there is any possibility of greater integration. For example, before the American Revolution the members of the Thirteen Colonies saw themselves as culturally independent of one another, and indeed they were very different. Rhode Island accepted people of every religion and creed, Massachusetts was nearly a theocracy, Georgia was an ex-penal colony, ect. The revolution gave them all a common enemy in the British Empire, and thus an American identity was forged in the fires of revolutionary fervor. If that had not happened the map of North America would be very different today, even if the colonies had still broken away. That is just one example, but we have seen the necessity of forming national identity as a precursor to a greater nation all throughout history.

Obviously Europe will need a different unifying force, and if it does not get one the EU is doomed.

Still no answer to why we should want a "European" identity. No reason why we should want to be in a USE. Really, I see absolutely no reason why we should surrender our freedom to a bunch of liberal arseholes who is hellbent on only serving themselves.

The younger generations, those who are too young to remember the Iron Curtain, those tend to oppose the EU. Not a value judgement, just an observation.

This is wrong. The opposition isn't just among the youngest generation. Your professor was probably a unionist schweinhund. Seeming as Germany is one of those countries who don't give a damn about the laws except when it benefits them, it wouldn't surprise me if he has a fundamentally skewed view of how the EU works because of that.

I'm personally in favor of greater European integration, but that's easy for me to do as a non-resident. I figure it'll help counterbalance the US when we're at our dumbest, and help the US when the chips are really down. Certainly in the 1990's, there was enthusiasm in the US for the European Union because it saves us time and money for Europe to be able to deal with shit on their turf rather than us doing it (plus, many Americans secretly wished for less geography to have to learn...)

You might as well favour greater American integration into China or Russia.

So obviously, the solution is a European Union Civil War! We'll only need 100 million or so dead, and what with advances in technology, I'm sure it'll be over by Christmas! 

Had too many of those already Hitler did get his wish, though: a unified Europe was his ultimate goal.

No, I like it the way it is. We don't need patriotism, or unification. The only thing we need to be wary of is the short term thinkers (who are usually EU opponents, as they fail to see the big picture), but I'm pretty positive we'll overcome that. I like the EU being more loosely coupled than the USA, it prevents missteps and promotes healthy competition between countries (many are looking over the borders how the other members are dealing with certain problems). However, for that continuous competition to remain healthy does require oversight from a rational super-government with the ability to keep the members in line.

The EU is a neoliberalist stronghold. There is no place as full of short-term thinkers as the EU, hence why environmentalists and socialists who want to build a stable society and/or move away from our current, in-the-long-term-unsupportable, consumist culture tend to be very sceptical of it. Well, possibly there is the previous Greek government, but well, yeah. Greeks.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Still no answer to why we should want a "European" identity. No reason why we should want to be in a USE.

For one, it would leave Europe in a much more powerful state. You'd have more influence on world politics because you'd be more than a confederation.

I'm not exactly sure what it is you want politically, but the EU being more integrated would give you the chance to spread it farther.

Really, I see absolutely no reason why we should surrender our freedom to a bunch of liberal arseholes who is hellbent on only serving themselves.

.....What definition of liberal are you operating under here?

[MonkeyHead]

Ah, but thats just it, isnt it. People in the EU value our individual national identites far higher than we do the potential for becoming some gestalt superpower.