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[anailater]

I think we should convert Rox because of two things, Alice loves her and Night trolls live a long time, Rox will die and Alice will become sad, if we convert her, they can live together forever.

Good idea. Give her Battlelust?

But Don' t bring it up now, that would be bad.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We discussed Rox conversion with Alice, she clearly said that it is a bad idea because Foghorn will not allow her that. Rox is  his friend and important servant.

And Rox loves Foghorn at least as much as she loves Alice

True enough. We'll need to discuss the matter with Foghorn and Rox first. After cementing an alliance with Foghorn...maybe the box would help?
Look at me, curbing the discussion towards something more immediately relevant!

[Thecard]

And Rox loves Foghorn at least as much as she loves Alice

I thought she lesbian?  Does she like Foggy the same way?  I could have missed it if she did.

In either case, she is definitely very loyal to him.  He'd have to give it the go ahead, but he probably won't.

[javierpwn]

Silly card man, animal people don't grasp the concept of homosexuality, they simply let their urges run wild and free

[Thecard]

Silly card man fish, animal people don't grasp the concept of homosexuality, they simply let their urges run wild and free

Much better. 

[GreatWyrmGold]

And Rox loves Foghorn at least as much as she loves Alice

I thought she lesbian?  Does she like Foggy the same way?  I could have missed it if she did.

There is more than one kind of love, Card.

In either case, she is definitely very loyal to him.  He'd have to give it the go ahead, but he probably won't.

Yeah...maybe if we emphasize how happy she and Alice are together and make him feel indebted to us...say, by giving him the box?

[Thecard]

And Rox loves Foghorn at least as much as she loves Alice

I thought she lesbian?  Does she like Foggy the same way?  I could have missed it if she did.

There is more than one kind of love, Card.

Yeah, that's what I meant by the "loyalty" thing.  I just feel like she might love Alice more than she loves Leghorn.

In either case, she is definitely very loyal to him.  He'd have to give it the go ahead, but he probably won't.

Yeah...maybe if we emphasize how happy she and Alice are together and make him feel indebted to us...say, by giving him the box?

Yepperoni.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Yeah, that's what I meant by the "loyalty" thing.  I just feel like she might love Alice more than she loves Leghorn.

She never tried to save Alice from tortures and forced marriage. So I really doubt that

Whatever we do we shouldn't tell Foghorn about romantic affair between Rox and Alice.

I am against  converting Rox, that is bad for many reasons:

1) Foghorn
2) Weird love triangle will create problems
3) Alice may get upset that we want to raise our power and convert her love just to use for our cause. She is overprotective about Rox
4) Alice and Rox may break up (most likely they will) Considering their characters they may become fierce rivals
5) If Rox will ever fall in love with a male... she'll hate us because they will not be able to have a child ( that's true for Alice, too. But it's too late to change anything)

[gman8181]

Can some people please stop acting like Alice has had a horrible curse inflicted on her that will forever ruin her life and any chance she has at happiness?  We didn't punish Alice, we gave her a gift.  Maybe not the gift everyone wanted for her, hell maybe not even the gift she wanted most but in my eyes and probably in the eyes of our character it was a great and valuable gift.  We took her in when her own father acted like he didn't want her and we have been a very good friend in my honest opinion.  Sure Alice has to overcome the temporary hurdle of unfamiliarity with her body but we took away her fears, gave her  power and immortality barring death by violence.  She has a very long time to grow in harmony with her gift and she has a lot more opportunity for experiencing life now than she would have had as a mortal human.  If Rox and Alice really love each other, then they will find a way to make things work and if not then they never really loved each other in the first place.  Alice has a long time to find that special someone and all the better if we work our way in there.

Sorry if that seemed like a rant.  Don't know why it even bothers me but I just feel like we did what most of us felt was right at the time but it's never enough if some people don't get what they feel is right.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yeah, that's what I meant by the "loyalty" thing.  I just feel like she might love Alice more than she loves Leghorn.

She never tried to save Alice from tortures and forced marriage. So I really doubt that

Did Rox even know about it?
It's entirely possible that I forgot about that if she did.

Whatever we do we shouldn't tell Foghorn about romantic affair between Rox and Alice.

I thought he already knew...

I am against  converting Rox, that is bad for many reasons:

1) Foghorn
2) Weird love triangle will create problems

True. Possibly.

3) Alice may get upset that we want to raise our power and convert her love just to use for our cause. She is overprotective about Rox
4) Alice and Rox may break up (most likely they will) Considering their characters they may become fierce rivals

Aren't most of our arguments for converting Rox so the two of them can stay together? Wouldn't this affect their feelings towards us and each other?

5) If Rox will ever fall in love with a male... she'll hate us because they will not be able to have a child ( that's true for Alice, too. But it's too late to change anything)

Alice is a lesbian, it was never an issue for her. I thought Rox was, too?

Can some people please stop acting like Alice has had a horrible curse inflicted on her that will forever ruin her life and any chance she has at happiness?  We didn't punish Alice, we gave her a gift.  Maybe not the gift everyone wanted for her, hell maybe not even the gift she wanted most but in my eyes and probably in the eyes of our character it was a great and valuable gift.  We took her in when her own father acted like he didn't want her and we have been a very good friend in my honest opinion.  Sure Alice has to overcome the temporary hurdle of unfamiliarity with her body but we took away her fears, gave her  power and immortality barring death by violence.  She has a very long time to grow in harmony with her gift and she has a lot more opportunity for experiencing life now than she would have had as a mortal human.  If Rox and Alice really love each other, then they will find a way to make things work and if not then they never really loved each other in the first place.  Alice has a long time to find that special someone and all the better if we work our way in there.
Sorry if that seemed like a rant.  Don't know why it even bothers me but I just feel like we did what most of us felt was right at the time but it's never enough if some people don't get what they feel is right.

Aside from the flaming wings, it was a good gift. We did make her life...different, at least. Once she gets over the issues with being partly bound to us and figures out how to live with the flaming wings (which I am surprised she hasn't burnt anything with yet--does she sleep on a stone floor?), she'll be better off than she was before. Probably.
I still think it would have been better to give her the Left Stone gift, which would give the same benefits plus an independent life without having flaming wings, but whatever.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Spoiler: Rant about Alice (click to show/hide)

 

Can some people please stop acting like Alice has had a horrible curse inflicted on her that will forever ruin her life and any chance she has at happiness? 

No I can't. She may be happy or she may commit suicide it depends on a many factors, but it will be hard to her to get  happy soon
It's not a curse, but it's not good enough and have too many drawbacks

We didn't punish Alice, we gave her a gift.  Maybe not the gift everyone wanted for her, hell maybe not even the gift she wanted most but in my eyes and probably in the eyes of our character it was a great and valuable gift.

In my eyes consorts are inferior beings (they are better than mortals, but worse than true night trolls, doomed to be a second class citizens in the night troll society due to oblivious reasons. They don't get gifts, they can't convert... Can't choose gender of their kids. And maybe can have sons from only one male)

Our character may have another views and respect consorts as equals, but future night trolls will not be that kind.

Gift is not bad but it's not even remotely close to the first gift or the left stone one. Flying and one time resurrect aren't superpowers.
Maybe she got some bonuses to fire magic and birds empathy but I'd not count on that
The only really good thing we gave to her is immortality , but any gift would achieve that

She has a very long time to grow in harmony with her gift and she has a lot more opportunity for experiencing life now than she would have had as a mortal human.

And still her form is very limiting. It's way more limiting than ours or even Gwen's
She'll have to switch her lifestyle very dramatically forever. Other gifts were not that limiting, and the left stone could only boost her lifestyle

Alice has a long time to find that special someone and all the better if we work our way in there.

And there are problem that if Alice will ever switch orientation and want to have kids not from us... she will be unable to

IC, I view decision to convert Alice with that gift as a partial betrayal because of our greed. We didn't give the best gift for her, only because we hope for a better candidate (Quite unlikely event in fact)

______

Did Rox even know about it?
It's entirely possible that I forgot about that if she did.

She was the one who told us about it

I thought he already knew...

He threw Alice in torturing device for being a lesbian... How do you think, what would he do with someone who "seduced" his little daughter?
He didn't even knows that we know that Alice is a lesbian and I think it would we better if that will stay the same

Aren't most of our arguments for converting Rox so the two of them can stay together? Wouldn't this affect their feelings towards us and each other?

That will affect. In some unpredictable way.

Alice is a lesbian, it was never an issue for her. I thought Rox was, too?

Pure homosexuality is very rare for women.

Eternity is a long enough time to switch

Alice is 16 year old... that's only the beginning of sexuality.

It may be only result of teenager rebelliousness against social norms

Consorts are changed by conversion, some instincts are added. I am sure that if turn on any gift near Alice she will do whatever is needed for mating( that's a form of a rape, but still)

I see no reasons to assume that Rox is a lesbian and not a bi

[Mlamlah]

Pure homosexuality is very rare for women.

Heh, this is not true.
You may be confused by the numbers of women who engage in lesbian activities in order to "lure male mates". This is a thing documented in more than one species, but it does not mean that genuine lesbianism is any more rare than male homosexuality.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Spoiler: huge offtop (click to show/hide)

but it does not mean that genuine lesbianism is any more rare than male homosexuality.

Polls generally indicate that there are fewer females that consider themselves strictly gay. For example

Australia
2003
The largest and most thorough survey in Australia to date was conducted by telephone interview with 19,307 respondents between the ages of 16 and 59 in 2001/2002. The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as gay and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual. Nevertheless, 8.6% of men and 15.1% of women reported either feelings of attraction to the same gender or some sexual experience with the same gender. Half the men and two thirds of the women who had same-sex sexual experience regarded themselves as heterosexual rather than homosexual.

I am too lazy to google for better source than wikipedia

Of cause polls can't be 100% accurate due to delicate nature of the question, but still deference is noticeable. Much more women have homosexual tendencies then men but fewer attracted only by the same gender.

[Thecard]

See, that is what pisses me off about your arguments.  You're basing your decisions on the assumption that Alice is not really lesbian and will change later.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I think it's  probable that she isn't a pure lesbian. As a poker player I am used to base me decisions on probabilities
And I base my suggestions on views of my version of the character , who surely thinks that sex can't be that unpleasant to not mate when it's needed

Looks like my hopes for impregnating Alice with the left stone are pointless... it will be denied

anyway we badly need an update to stop the new chapter of derailing