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Author Topic: Gender and all it entails  (Read 23111 times)

Duke 2.0

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #135 on: October 11, 2012, 09:40:51 pm »

You know, I don't really have any problems with that. My only qualm would be why it's necessary to refer to the categories of morals as masculine and feminine if everyone should mature all of them. Is each gender viewed as naturally being better at one half of them?
To some extent yeah. It could even work as interacting with a particular sex helps you learn about that set of morals, even if that member of that sex isn't terribly mature in those aspects. And this is my own take on it, the original texts are a lot more blunt about men and women relating to eachother as the ideal. Which I follow but don't really enforce on others. I prefer the emphasis on maturing morals.
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I would bet money Andrew has edited things retroactively, except I can't prove anything because it was edited retroactively.
MIERDO MILLAS DE VIBORAS FURIOSAS PARA ESTRANGULARTE MUERTO

Truean

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #136 on: October 11, 2012, 09:46:35 pm »

The abstract of all of this doesn't mean much, until you get into the realities of it....

The question becomes real when you consider how you deal with people who don't meet their expected gender roles. That's what makes this real rather than some petulant professor's exercise.

a.) Dealing with kinds who don't match up to their gender expectations (moreso with males than females).
b.) Dealing with customers who don't match....
c.) Dealing with coworkers....
d.) Dealing with friends and acquaintances (your own or other people's)....
e.) Dealing with service providers and businesses....
f.) Dealing with potential romantic interests....

a.) It's amazing how often this seems to come up. I don't have any good answers.
b.) I still can't comprehend much of this, especially with MtF transgendered people purchasing clothes....
c.) It's an unfortunate and well known fact that Transgendered people have a hell of a time finding work and it's often even difficult in San Francisco of all places....
d.) This perhaps hurts the most. Friends/boyfriends/parents/relatives of my friends get pissed.... This often ends the my friendship, or makes it weird....
e.) People often don't/won't buy things from transgender people. It sucks.
f.) This is perhaps the most complicated and most understandable objection against transpeople. Tragically, there's no good answer. You're just mostly screwed if you're trans in the relationship department, and that sucks. I don't expect straight men to like me romantically, but the way I've seen people react to a gay person asking them out.... :(. Ideally, there would be a live and let live thing where you could ask or somehow know if the person would be interested in you. Tragically, that's not quite how it works in real life.

I don't have answers here, and while where I live may contribute to my perceptions, it isn't the only thing....
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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kaijyuu

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #137 on: October 11, 2012, 09:50:16 pm »

My only potential issue with a relationship with a trans person is quite specific: FtM, post op. I want physical intimacy too, and while plastic surgery has advanced quite a bit, it's my understanding that their new equipment doesn't work all the way. I would prefer them to stay pre-op for that, but I would otherwise treat them exactly like a man.

If plastic surgery advances far enough to make everything functional, that complaint would vanish.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #138 on: October 11, 2012, 10:02:52 pm »

My only potential issue with a relationship with a trans person is quite specific: FtM, post op. I want physical intimacy too, and while plastic surgery has advanced quite a bit, it's my understanding that their new equipment doesn't work all the way. I would prefer them to stay pre-op for that, but I would otherwise treat them exactly like a man.

If plastic surgery advances far enough to make everything functional, that complaint would vanish.

I think alot of people would view that one as a no-go honestly.
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #139 on: October 11, 2012, 10:06:16 pm »

The abstract of all of this doesn't mean much, until you get into the realities of it....

 Yeah, I'm well aware of why people oppose the implications of my spirituality. Which is sorta why I followed it up with too much text on how I place the most value on things that resonate with my heart. I don't want to make people suffer. I want people to be happy and find good relationships in the various aspects of love. And I only really accepted answers that think the same way.
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Buck up friendo, we're all on the level here.
I would bet money Andrew has edited things retroactively, except I can't prove anything because it was edited retroactively.
MIERDO MILLAS DE VIBORAS FURIOSAS PARA ESTRANGULARTE MUERTO

Truean

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #140 on: October 11, 2012, 10:49:31 pm »

The only way I can reconcile people having a problem with transpeople romantically is that humans are frail and funny things. Logically there is no reason; emotionally there is.

Logically:
If someone had a problem with a limb or was missing one, you could still love them. Simply replace the word "limb" with genitals and you have the transgendered's issue.

Emotionally:
It creeps people out and this particular body part is important to them romantically.

There is no explaining it....
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

kaijyuu

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #141 on: October 11, 2012, 10:50:22 pm »

Note that I would have the same issue with someone in a tragic accident or something that lost use of those organs, too :X
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Truean

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #142 on: October 11, 2012, 10:52:13 pm »

I don't blame you for that, as it isn't your fault.
However, you must understand that to the man without an arm, it seems unfair....

No blame, but no fairness....
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:53:44 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

kaijyuu

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #143 on: October 11, 2012, 10:53:48 pm »

*nods*

I understand. I also fully believe there will be someone out there that will love them regardless. It just might not be me, is all.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Meansdarling

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #144 on: October 12, 2012, 12:41:17 am »

Thinking about gender is really fun. I like this thread. I care about gender but I don't care to be defined by it.

So I'm female. I haven't had any romantic relationships. I'm accepting of all people. I'm in the process of figuring out my sexuality and gender identity. I've had thoughts of what it would be like to be a man. I'm fine with being a women. I really want to shave my head because having hair is a hassle. I'd like to have smaller or no breasts because future back problems and pain during exercise. I have no proof but I think I'd be fine with dating and continuing dating someone who revealed to me they were trans.

Gender roles are defined by society. I think they happened because it was easy. Religion seems to have a lot to do with it. The Bible, the Greek Pantheon, the goddess Inanna, fertility statues... I think the physical act of pregnancy has a lot to do with being what society defines as a women. It'd be interesting if men were able to carry children like women do. How would the world change?

Gender roles also define parents. Ex: My dad was tougher on my brother for crying than he was on me and my sister. Counter Ex: My dad had no job and was a stay at home dad while my mom worked. In the first my dad was a stereotypical male who enforced the men must be tougher than women and not show emotions thing. In the second my mom took over the role of provider for the family thus defying the typical gender expectation.

On the topic of where do non-traditional gender people fit in society:
Sterile people and people like me who never want to be pregnant can adopt. There are tons of kids out there for people who want children to build families around. Though I've heard of prejudice in the system against gay couples and other less defined relationships, so it might be really tough. Maybe you didn't mean family wise(that's where my mind went automatically)?

Can ya'll ask me some questions that will help me define any prejudices I might have around gender and stuff? I'm just rambling on with no direction here.
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misko27

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #145 on: October 12, 2012, 12:46:16 am »

I think the physical act of pregnancy has a lot to do with being what society defines as a women. It'd be interesting if men were able to carry children like women do. How would the world change?
Well, for starters, they wouldn't be male. The only way I could conceptualize that is if humans were hermaphrodites, like leeches. Or seahorses. But even thats substantially different (as well as dependant on being under water.)
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kaijyuu

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #146 on: October 12, 2012, 01:04:40 am »

It's technically possible for a man to carry a baby if you implant the embryo, but obviously there's no place for it to come out. I also don't know if a proper placenta will form or anything like that, either; I just know a fertilized egg can attach to the abdominal wall.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Swiftling

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #147 on: October 12, 2012, 02:04:02 am »

It's hard to imagine how things would be different if males were suddenly able to have babies. Things would definitely be different, after all, it's been ingrained in human society that child bearing is a women's role since the first humans were around. Perhaps men will have a greater understanding of what women go through (not saying I've gone through it myself, but my mum's a midwife, so I'd say I know a fair bit from those stories over the dinner table :P). Or maybe gender roles will be thrown out altogether (unlikely). Or maybe men will see their new 'ability' as an insult to their manliness and be angry.

Damn, hypothetical situations are hard.

Edit: This thread is quite interesting. It's got me thinking about not only gender roles but equality as a whole in society. Thanks for starting it.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 02:06:04 am by Swiftling »
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Solifuge

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #148 on: October 12, 2012, 02:33:51 am »

I think the physical act of pregnancy has a lot to do with being what society defines as a women. It'd be interesting if men were able to carry children like women do. How would the world change?

I actually had written a big old post relating to this a few days back, but lost it. I'll do my best to recreate it:

Cultures are tied to the lives of the people who practice them, and as such behave kinda like living things... they're subject to laws similar to those of Natural Selection in that they are created, grow or die, splinter off from one another and evolve into new cultures, and even go extinct. The Gender Roles which define what it is to be a Man or Woman are a sort of cultural Defense, which Human populations invented over time to help them and their Cultures survive.

Allow me to explain: one of the big reasons that Women in many cultures have historically been limited to domestic tasks was a matter of survival. In historical environments, where Humans had higher mortality rates due to the lack of knowledge of how to treat injuries and such, keeping your population level stable could be difficult... and in this regard, Males are much less valuable than Females. In communities which didn't have any sexual division of labor, and equally exposed their Females and Males to injuries from tasks such as hunting, warfare, heavy labor, etc., the loss of adult Females was felt harder, since it meant the community could have fewer pregnancies, and it would thus take longer to replace those lost lives. Meanwhile their neighboring communities, which started limiting Females to less risky tasks, would lose more of their Males, but could recover those lost much more quickly with a larger population of Females, since one Male can breed with more than one Female. Thus, cultures with Gender Roles that lost fewer Females grew and expanded more quickly, ultimately winning out in the Cultural Arms Race. This, along with a sharp drop in mortality rates due to technological advancements, was so effective at allowing human populations to grow that we're now facing an overpopulation crisis as a species. Thanks a lot, sex-based division of labor... real helpful there!

On that note, the Gender Roles we still uphold are pretty much unnecessary at this point; we don't have trouble with mortality that requires us to shelter our women in a domestic bubble, while men act as soldiers and laborers and such. In fact, I could see a lot of great arguments for formally adopting more fluid notions of Gender... for instance, accepting Homosexual couples as Families, and not making it so hard for them to adopt children, which could really help deal with the millions of children without parents who are raised within institutions.

On another note, I thought it was pretty interesting to learn that Marriage customs may have a biologically inspiration. Many of the apes we are most closely related to practice something called Female Exogamy where, to help avoid incest, females leave the social group of their birth and join the social group their mate belongs to. Every species that lives in social groups practices either Male or Female Exogamy. Our Human ancestors probably inherited this practice from whatever common ancestor we shared with these apes, which eventually evolved into the cultural marriage practices we see in much of the world today; women are expected to marry into a man's family, and symbolically join it by adopting their surname. Kinda neat, huh?
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #149 on: October 12, 2012, 05:13:24 am »

Men can have babies completely. Not only can we breastfeed them, but the placenta can grow from the attachment. Where our problem is begins with that attachment. You see, a uterus has this thing that gets shed every month. This is the source of a icky problem women have. However, this icky item is responsible for a placenta detatching from a woman after a baby comes out without ripping out half her body.

A semi-permanant oriface can be created to take a baby out, and a baby can grow in a man. The problem is once the baby comes out, the man is in trouble.

No doctor in their right mind would implant eggs into a man because of that. But uterus transplants are now possible, and stem cell research isn't far from growing missing organs. How would you define a guy who stays male but has a Uterus? You all think our gender views are wacky now...

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