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[Nilocy]

Hi folks, long time no posty.

So I've been away (read been on reddit for too long) for a bit and I've decided I need some actual intellectual discussion on the topics I enjoy  without some hateful asshole coming along and shitting on it.

Recently I've been exploring the concept of gender and what it means to different people. I'm always open and super interested in how and what people interpret it as.

My personal view is that gender is an entirely non-existent thing. A social construct made to discriminate and assign roles. "Man must do this. Women must do that. No questions." A very basic view, but nonetheless this is how I feel it was designed for use. A quick way of delegating tasks before we had time to explore our inner workings.

From the moment you're born genders been imposed on you. (Unless you're one of the lucky ones brought up into a very liberal family or specifically raised gender neutral) The second thing out your parents mouths, unless they had an ultrasound scan to determine sex, was "Is it a boy or a girl". Bam, instantly you're now one of two possible thing. No possibility of being something else. Your genders been determined for you, how could you object, you're barely starting to breath. Having something as fundamental as your gender coercively chosen for you has serious ramifications on your future self. If born male it'll be expect that you'll grow up to become a man and do 'manly things' (what ever the fuck they are). Have experiences of growing up a boy then turn into a man. Same for being born female, it'll be expected you'll grow up to become a woman and do 'womenly things' (what ever the fuck they are). This is great for most people as they don't even bothering questioning this and they feel comfortable in their chosen gender because that's how 'it's always been'; "I have a penis, how can I be anything other than a man" "I have a vagina, how can I be anything other than a women". And this is where we run into problems. What if you don't quite fit nicely into being a man, or male, or being a women or female? And even then, what the hell does it mean to fit nicely as a male or female, or man or women? What makes a man a man or a women a women? That's where we come to our first big "WE'VE MADE A HORRIBLE MISTAKE WE SHOULD FIX IT ASAP" issue. Sex and gender arn't the same thing.

Sex is the biological determination by your sex chromosomes, you can be XX, XY, XXY, XYY or some others that I've probably forgotten about. Thats all it is, just a set of physical instructions your cells will carry out till their dying day. You had no control over this (as far as I know) so you're pretty much stuck with this for life. Unlucky for some (like me, boohoo).

Gender identity on the other hand, well I genuinely don't know how to explain this one without delving into the subjective since it truly isn't something I feel can be proven by hard evidence in order to convince someone of the choices I have made. But it isn't as simple as being one of two that's for sure. It varies from person to person, the label I use most often to describe myself is 'transwomen' but some days idgaf and go out presenting as male because I enjoy people seeing me as male sometimes. My girlfriend on the other hand is genderneutral, she prefers female pronouns and enjoys using male pronouns from time to time. I also take issue to the use labels, if you didn't know already, as I feel they only help to enforce someone elses views and assumptions onto people they've never met.

Gender and sex can be linked, for example my choice to transition was based of the fact that my gender identity conflicts with my biological sex. Not everyone who is trans has this, I accept my body as it stands now but I'd like it to change.

Under the trans* umbrella falls things like androgyny, gender neutral, third gender, transgender males/females, mtfs, ftms, a whole load, possibly endless if we can find words to explain them. If you find a word that fits you, then awesome!

Anyway, the discussion I'd like to start revolves around the idea that there should be more education to everyone, especially younger people, about the variance in gender identity and what it means to be a [whatever gender, if any, identity you choose to take on]. Do you agree that gender discrimination should be a thing that happens in todays societies? Do you agree with the gender binary? What about having any experiences that made you realise things about gender (like being forced to choose which toilet to enter (mens/womens)) or things like being told off as a kid for playing with 'girls toys' if you were a 'boy' or vice-versa?

Remember, keep it civil, constructive criticism yes, just being a douch, no.

[kaijyuu]

I'm in the "don't really care" camp. There are some gender related things that matter to me (I'm bi with a preference toward men, but that's really more of a stereotypical personality attraction rather than anything intrinsic to gender), but for the most part, whupidedoo.


For trans individuals, more power to them. I don't find it a big deal what they look like or what pronouns they use, but if THEY find it a bid deal, I'll be happy to oblige. My only concern is if people identify with the opposite gender just because they fit a few stereotypes. Gender doesn't define you; you define gender. Not fitting the "correct" stereotypes does not mean you're not the sex you were born as (though it doesn't preclude it either).

[Loud Whispers]

I'm in the "don't really care" camp.

Aye. It's too complicated an issue to ever have one absolute informed opinion on it, besides - be who you are £:

[Neonivek]

My personal view is that gender is an entirely non-existent thing. A social construct made to discriminate and assign roles. "Man must do this. Women must do that. No questions." A very basic view, but nonetheless this is how I feel it was designed for use. A quick way of delegating tasks before we had time to explore our inner workings

While I do think our view of gender is overly limited my viewpoint is always this
1) People who think gender is meaningless will be surprised
and
2) People who thing gender is everything will be disapointed

Gender isn't meaningless or non-existant to me. There are genuin pushes and pulls... but at the same time the genders are lot more similar then one might thing to the point where even impossible psychologies exist between them. For example from what little I've seen men have a subconscious idea of how pregnancy works even though that is something outright impossible for them.

In otherwords its confusing and not worth talking about mostly because even attempting to find the differences between two people will get you eaten by a mob... while saying they are exactly the same is a somewhat more of a idealistic point to take on rather then an intellectual one.

I once cared a bit more, but that was mostly because I grown up being a male who was absolutely disinterested in sex, liked cute little animals, and was otherwise insular. Which doesn't mean much but when you add the "Female double standard" talks you get a LOT growing up, when you yourself are getting a double standard for not fitting the male mold, you start to really question everything everyone tells you about men and women and ultimately my conclusion was afterall this time was:

The Conclusion: It isn't worth talking about because people will hate you for discussing it.

---

I do like breaking down Gender roles from creatures that simply do not have gender but have an associated gender

For example the creatures in Viva Pinata have no gender. Yet they give themselves these associative roles as male, female, mother, father. They however act on these roles and even segregate based on it (but given their society... it seems more like they constructed a method of competition.)

Smurfs likely also do not have gender. Smurfette (and the other two female smurfs) is likely supposed to be "Female" as her trait but otherwise no one truely has even associated gender.

[Fenrir]

be who you are £:

It’s quite impossible for me to be someone that I am not. The day you discover someone who isn’t who he is, is the day you collect your Nobel You-Broke-the-Goddamn-Universe prize.

[Loud Whispers]

be who you are £:

It’s quite impossible for me to be someone that I am not. The day you discover someone who isn’t who he is, is the day you collect your Nobel You-Broke-the-Goddamn-Universe prize.

It is quite possible to be deluded though. Where's my prize?

[kaijyuu]

Ah, but it's quite possible to act like something you're not. Your objection is semantic pedantry, unless you think actors are all the characters they play at the same time.

[Pnx]

Society tends to impose a lot of expectations, and I've noticed people tend to judge me based on my gender, or at least using my gender as a lens quite a lot... I'm not exactly thrilled with this situation, though it's one I think I can live with. I'd love to live in a world where there was little to no difference in the expectations and perceptions of men and women, but I honestly don't think it's ever going to happen in my lifetime.

[Frumple]

Eh. Gender roles are annoying and I'd be a happier person if they just vanished into the aether like, tomorrow maybe. Or five minutes from this being posted. Whatever. Honestly not sure if I have much to say on the subject beyond that. The stuff's bunk s'far as I'm concerned. There's a degree of physiological impact based on sex, but everything I've seen so far has led me to conclude it's sufficiently trivial as to be discounted as important. Everything else is culturally based and... well, annoying and inefficient. People should be what they most enjoy and/or are best at being, or some mix of the two, and most other considerations should be tossed out the window, including and especially stereotypical gender roles.

[Fenrir]

Your objection is semantic pedantry...

...and possibly not completely serious.

[kaijyuu]

Ah, okay then

Sorry if I was abrasive there.

[Karnewarrior]

Gender can be used to discriminate, but it does serve a quite useful purpose.

In a world without gender roles, men and women would be entirely equal in the workplace. However, it would also make it more difficult to make split-second assumptions, which could cause problems. When you see two people about to get hit by a train, and you can only save one, you're more likely to save the woman, not because you've determined through careful thought that she's more useful, but because the pre-defined role says she's more likely to be maternal, and if she has a family she's more integral to it's structure than the man is likely to be.

Obviously it's not fair. She could not have children, or be a terrible mother, or anything else, but it means we can make snap judgements like that.

There's a similar thing with Political Correctness. I noticed during my school days that the different ethnic and racial groups clumped together sort of. It wasn't mandated or even expected, it simply was how the kids figured themselves out. There were plenty of black children eating with or befriending white children, and there was no overt racism, but the human mind, I think, is programmed to discriminate naturally, and lacking any outside pressure, the most obvious differences go first. Hence the existance of a Black Kid Table despite a otherwise almost completely egalitarian school.

The issue with discrimination comes when it's seen as taboo to defy your gender and try to "be something you're not". The very minor sexual dichotomy of Homo Sapiens Sapiens doesn't make a girl unable to successfully run a company; men scoffing at her does. Just because a dude wears a dress to work doesn't mean he can't be a good cook; his coworkers shunning him does. Unless you're a longbowman, breasts aren't going to get in the way, and niether will your lack of them. But stereotypes aren't going to disappear and maybe they shouldn't. People just need to learn how to replace stereotypes as they are disproven. When I see a teen in a bandanna, saggy jeans, and leather jacket, I'm not ashamed to admit my first impression is of a delinquent. But if I'm disproven, I depend on myself being able to replace what I used to think with what is. That's true egalitarianism. Or at least as true as it can really get.

TL;DR: Gender roles are alright as long as it's not taboo to defy them. when it is taboo they get bad.

[Fenrir]

kaijyuu, you don't owe me an apology; there isn't anything in my post to tell you I wasn't serious, so it's really my fault.

[Nilocy]

Gender rolls infuriate me. I want to spread butter over them and eat them for din dins.

[TheBronzePickle]

As nice as it would be to get rid of gender roles, I've always believed it's not that simple.

The human mind likes stereotypes. It's a quick way to store general 'knowledge' (whether factual, opinionated, or in many cases just outright wrong) about someone or something until a more detailed examination can be merited. Sure, we could just imagine all humans as blank slates, but that doesn't always work because sometimes those stereotypes are at least partially true and it gets embedded. Gender roles are one of those stereotypes, and it's a very pervasive stereotype. Though it's slowly being broken down, there's still going to be ways that people generally define people, and whether you have a penis or a vagina (or at least have the generally accepted physical traits of one or the other) is probably going to factor in at least somewhat during these initial assumptions.

I think the best we'll ever manage is to be able to objectively define the differences between a male and female and use those as our gender stereotypes until we have the time to learn about and understand each and every person.

Ninja edit: I'm still posting this even though it's basically already been said, but this took a while to write.