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Author Topic: Gender and all it entails  (Read 23040 times)

Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2012, 06:11:48 pm »

I'm not dumb enough to not realize by "people", you mean me (and possibly Virex/Frumple?).

Actually I really did mean nobody in particular, let alone remember what your username was at the time.
I meant that people like to perceive anyone who doesn't agree with them 100% as an "enemy" whenever the current climate is leaning towards hostile.

I already explained to you that I am simply terrible at explaining stuff but you refuse to listen and keep calling on examples I already acknowledged as poor representatives of my actual beliefs to argue against me.

The fact that you perceived an insult from that post just reinforces it's point. Because you consider yourself "against me" you assume that I am "against you".

It's hardly my fault if you're explaining your position poorly. Not just poorly, but apparently in a manner that suggests you actually hold radically different positions... somehow. Neither does it change the fact you specifically mean me even if you can't remember my name. Are we clear now? Can we move back to the subject of gender in full or is this tangent going to go on forever?
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2012, 06:13:18 pm »

It's hardly my fault if you're explaining your position poorly. Not just poorly, but apparently in a manner that suggests you actually hold radically different positions... somehow. Neither does it change the fact you specifically mean me even if you can't remember my name. Are we clear now? Can we move back to the subject of gender in full or is this tangent going to go on forever?

I fail to see how getting back "on topic" is even possible here, considering you will continue to endlessly bitch at anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you because you believe yourself to be absolutely 100% correct and a total fucking genius on all things sociological apparently.
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Virex

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #107 on: October 11, 2012, 06:18:44 pm »

Can both of you cut it out? Neither is making a particularly fruitful attempt at convincing the other or anyone reading this thread, you're just wasting time on senseless bickering. If you're right you can either cough up a coherent argument without misleading language or insults, or be right in silence.
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #108 on: October 11, 2012, 06:19:19 pm »

Can both of you cut it out? Neither is making a particularly fruitful attempt at convincing the other or anyone reading this thread, you're just wasting time on senseless bickering. If you're right you can either cough up a coherent argument without misleading language or insults, or be right in silence.
Sounds good to me.
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misko27

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2012, 06:19:32 pm »

Wow. Interesting thread. Significant of ranting for bay12. Serious ranting, mind you. A little disappointing, I'll admit.

Stating my general opinion. There aer bilogical differences, and those do affect how the brain works, but ohter then that I really don't care. I'm male. Big freaking whoop. Sure, I didn't choose it, but this is not a game, you can't choose a avatar. There are things in life that simply can't be changed. And I don't care! I really don't. I don't feel it has impacted me significantly.

It's hardly my fault if you're explaining your position poorly. Not just poorly, but apparently in a manner that suggests you actually hold radically different positions... somehow. Neither does it change the fact you specifically mean me even if you can't remember my name. Are we clear now? Can we move back to the subject of gender in full or is this tangent going to go on forever?

I fail to see how getting back "on topic" is even possible here, considering you will continue to endlessly bitch at anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you because you believe yourself to be absolutely 100% correct and a total fucking genius on all things sociological apparently.
I am always willing to re-rail for the sake of not yelling.
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Nilocy

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #110 on: October 11, 2012, 06:22:39 pm »

Okey guys. Enough is enough, pack up the insult slinging and personal attacks or I be closing this thread.

I wanted an intelligent, mature discussion on this. Not some pissy "I know more about this topic than you" arguement.

Please make some room for other points of view, if someone disagrees don't go trying to convince them that they're wrong. Show them why you think you're right. Present information on your viewpoints and let them decide for themselves. Remember, everyone has a view on something or another.
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misko27

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #111 on: October 11, 2012, 06:24:44 pm »

Okey guys. Enough is enough, pack up the insult slinging and personal attacks or I be closing this thread.

I wanted an intelligent, mature discussion on this. Not some pissy "I know more about this topic than you" arguement.

Please make some room for other points of view, if someone disagrees don't go trying to convince them that they're wrong. Show them why you think you're right. Present information on your viewpoints and let them decide for themselves. Remember, everyone has a view on something or another.
You're right. this thread must either be re-railed, or derailed onto a less angry topic. Perhaps Chicken? I love chicken.
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Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #112 on: October 11, 2012, 06:25:39 pm »

Sorry for getting caught up in it. I'm just going to take a break from this thread for a while.
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Nilocy

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #113 on: October 11, 2012, 06:26:32 pm »

Okey guys. Enough is enough, pack up the insult slinging and personal attacks or I be closing this thread.

I wanted an intelligent, mature discussion on this. Not some pissy "I know more about this topic than you" arguement.

Please make some room for other points of view, if someone disagrees don't go trying to convince them that they're wrong. Show them why you think you're right. Present information on your viewpoints and let them decide for themselves. Remember, everyone has a view on something or another.
You're right. this thread must either be re-railed, or derailed onto a less angry topic. Perhaps Chicken? I love chicken.
Rerail it onto say the ways gender rolls evolved maybe. It's always interesting to know how people feel about them now. My personal opinion is that we've reached a stage where they're no longer needed in such a strict sense as once before.

Edit:
Sorry for getting caught up in it. I'm just going to take a break from this thread for a while.

No problem, it's a very emotive topic (trust me I've raged/cried many times over it when discussing it with people) since its a pretty fucking personal thing your own gender and sexual identity.
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #114 on: October 11, 2012, 06:27:50 pm »

 I would be willing to try and explain roughly my spiritual beliefs on the subject if I can get a guarantee that the response will be along the lines of "Oh, that's a stance to take on it" or at the very least "I don't agree with you, but we all have different beliefs." Instead of the usual responses of trying to refute whatever belief I hold because this really isn't about understanding others so much as showing people your truth.

 Yes I know that's basically saying "Don't disagree with me", but we gotta have a baseline for accepting people of all backgrounds and beliefs before one can actually reach the objective of knowing what others believe. Otherwise only people of one belief spectrum will congregate here and all others will drift away.

 (I promise it won't include stuff like "You are sinning" and "Some entity hates you/is enraged" or "You are the cause of the worlds problems", although most of you will probably disagree with it. Which is fine.)
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GoombaGeek

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #115 on: October 11, 2012, 06:29:41 pm »

Fucking hell, I should have known posting anything contrary to the exact beliefs of the OP and his supporters would do nothing but cause rampant flaming.
It's okay. I didn't know what to say about this, because saying that I don't care if someone has three chromosomes sounds bad. Saying I've been indoctrinated from birth to believe that I'm a man is stupid. So I thought a lot and now I'll try to sum it up.

1. It doesn't matter very much.
As a person, I'm fine with anyone's preferences if they don't harm anyone, so if you ever meet me in person, please don't keep repeating that you're part of a certain minority. Sure, society might oppress you guys. I don't oppress you guys. That's about as much as I can do so stop asking for more.
2. If they like it, who cares?
If someone is happy they're the way they are, don't fuck it up and tell them they should embrace the possibility of become a transgendered von Neumann machine in space. Time spent being obnoxious is time you could probably spend trying to raise awareness and make things better.
3. If you want society to change, stop pissing off the majority.
Wait a minute, I'm a straight white kid! I don't even know what I believe yet. Instead of fighting the majority (which is... becoming less major by the second), fight the attitudes. If you have a bunch of non-distinct gender people making a little closed happy group and acting supreme and open-minded and belittling the Mindless Hordes(tm) for not being tolerant of their own sex or whatever, that makes you look like jerks that we can't associate with. I try to accept as much as I can, but it gets hard when the people I'm trying to agree with are saying that "oh, you're too ignorant to understand yourself" or "stop the passive-aggressivity, you stupid perceptionless person".
4. The point that I couldn't name.
It's hard to find the right balance of acting different. If you act too insular and, I guess, too alien, it's hard to associate with you. Now I sound like a douchebag for telling you to conform. Fine line, amirite?! But if you want to get accepted as whatever you are (I couldn't find a comprehensive list of alternate chromosome configurations, although apparently XXY leads to sterile men with long arms), act like nice guys who don't have to bring up their unique (is there a good word that's like "sexuality" but for gender? imagine I used that word) constantly to get accepted through sheer attrition. Mention it once, because most people remember. If they aren't cool with it, leave. Constant reminders leave a bad image because it sounds like you feel like you're a cut above the rest. That's what it sounds like to me, not what you meant. I haven't lived in any atmosphere of pure hostility to anyone, so I couldn't tell you how to act there, but for people who don't care that much, please don't go overboard. Stay tactful. I had accepted all this before this thread opened, but then there was a lot of talk about evil society conditioning its poor deviants and guess what, society takes offense at being insulted.

I still couldn't sum it up right. Especially #4. That one's a bitch. Well, I hope it sounds vaguely coherent.

Also, holy crap, 9 new replies. That's a worrying pace.
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misko27

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #116 on: October 11, 2012, 06:34:08 pm »

Okey guys. Enough is enough, pack up the insult slinging and personal attacks or I be closing this thread.

I wanted an intelligent, mature discussion on this. Not some pissy "I know more about this topic than you" arguement.

Please make some room for other points of view, if someone disagrees don't go trying to convince them that they're wrong. Show them why you think you're right. Present information on your viewpoints and let them decide for themselves. Remember, everyone has a view on something or another.
You're right. this thread must either be re-railed, or derailed onto a less angry topic. Perhaps Chicken? I love chicken.
Rerail it onto say the ways gender rolls evolved maybe. It's always interesting to know how people feel about them now. My personal opinion is that we've reached a stage where they're no longer needed in such a strict sense as once before.
I don't know, I do love chicken...
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Well, I don;t know about Gender roles. I agree that they are less necessary, but the fact remains that there are some naturally occuring roles that simply exist. For example, The Vast majority of Government workers are female. 97% of Car mechanics are male. Sometimes there is just natural migration towards certain jobs.

In general, I really don't give a flying fuck about gender roles. Female? sure. Male? Okay. Transexual? Whatever. Non-gender? If thats possible, welcome aboard. I'm just a poor white kid though, so my opinion can be disregarded.
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Jervill

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #117 on: October 11, 2012, 06:40:52 pm »

Do you have a source on those numbers?  I highly doubt a "vast majority"->implies over 65% of gov't workers are female.  In my experience, working for local governments myself, it's more 50/50.  And that 97% figure sounds completely pulled out of thin air.  Also, a number of those are a result of societal conditioning, not biology.  There's nothing unusual about a young boy playing with die-cast cars, but it's still treated as different, or a "she'll grow out of it" thing with girls.  Same holds true about stereotypically girly interests, and kids see this and adapt to it to fit in.  That migration isn't natural.
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #118 on: October 11, 2012, 06:44:23 pm »

I do think physical/genetic gender is both relevant and somewhat important from a social standpoint. for two reasons.
Firstly, you have reproduction, the "scientific" reasoning behind romantic relationships and the reason why men like certain features in women and vice versa.
Secondly, you have societal norms. While not always a good or bad thing they do exist, and must be taken into account regardless of how much you like or dislike them.
Changing societal norms, while entirely possible is also not always a necessarily good or necessarily bad thing.


As for the general concept of gender I think it has 3 parts.
  • Genetic/initial physical: This is simply what a person was born as, it is possibly the least significant of the three but I can totally understand how anyone could care about it.
  • Physical Current: Their current physical gender, can be different to Genetic/initial on account of surgery. usually important to people who fall under traditional sexuality definitions.*
  • Social Gender: How the person "acts" often called masculinity and femininity. Usually important to people who fall under traditional sexuality definitions.*

*traditional sexuality definitions I consider to include "Straight/heterosexual" "Gay/homosexual" and "bisexual". "asexual" could be considered one but is sort of irrelevant to this discussion.
I myself am pansexual as I mentioned earlier, so gender is a bit irrelevant to me.**

Personally? I could care less about physical or genetic gender.** "male" and "female" are both potential partners for me as far as I care.
However, I do look at personality as a whole, that includes their physical and mental characteristics, their opinions and convictions about the world, and their history. While less important a persons history is somewhat significant still.

I consider myself more attracted to people with feminine personalities and female physiques, still attracted to people with masculine personalities and feminine physiques, but I am not close-minded to masculine personalities and male physiques or feminine personalities with masculine physiques.

More or less I simply find less people who are physically male that I am attracted to, to the point of it being an exceptionally rare occurrence, and even then I would have to also like their personality.
The combination of these two I think could have only happened with a couple of people I have met in person, both from back when I still was in my teenage "Dude, I'm so fucking masculine, dicks are gross, gay men are weird, omg tits" stage you could say.
Similarly regardless of how hot someone who is physically female is, I wouldn't date them if they were a bitch, or just didn't "mesh" well with me.


**When it comes to transgendered people I am entirely unsure how I would feel about that, I would have to be in that situation myself before I feel I could aptly offer an opinion here.




EDIT: fucking hell you people can post fast.
2. If they like it, who cares?
If someone is happy they're the way they are, don't fuck it up and tell them they should embrace the possibility of become a transgendered von Neumann machine in space. Time spent being obnoxious is time you could probably spend trying to raise awareness and make things better.
3. If you want society to change, stop pissing off the majority.
Wait a minute, I'm a straight white kid! I don't even know what I believe yet. Instead of fighting the majority (which is... becoming less major by the second), fight the attitudes. If you have a bunch of non-distinct gender people making a little closed happy group and acting supreme and open-minded and belittling the Mindless Hordes(tm) for not being tolerant of their own sex or whatever, that makes you look like jerks that we can't associate with. I try to accept as much as I can, but it gets hard when the people I'm trying to agree with are saying that "oh, you're too ignorant to understand yourself" or "stop the passive-aggressivity, you stupid perceptionless person".

I'd just to say I really like both of these points Goomba.
If a group is a minority and proceeds to do things which would be socially unacceptable for a majority member to do towards them, then it really just wedges the divide further apart.
I mean, take the example of a lesbian/gay couple who is making out rather aggressively in public, and somebody tells them to take it somewhere more private. If they respond by calling that person a homophobe or a bigot then all they have accomplished is leaving that individual with a poor opinion of the lesbian/gay community.
However, if instead they had politely apologized like any respectful straight couple would have done, and moved to a more private area, then that person would have likely been left with a great opinion of the lesbian/gay community.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 06:51:14 pm by bombzero »
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2012, 06:51:32 pm »

Okay people, quiet! I have something Important to say...
The next guy who checks out my breasts who doesn't compliment them is getting kicked in the nuts.

Seriously, I did not spend all this time and effort to lactate out of my male nipples only to get the enormous effort it took ignored. My AAs may be small, but they are fierce!

Yes ladies and Gentlemen, you have a male who willfully lactates here on Bay12. Emphasis on MALE.

How's that for gender discussion derailment?

Not a tranny either. Any guy can do it. Any girl too. Lactate and be free!

I will not be answering any questions that require me to give you a proverbial kick to the nuts as described above. Otherwise, there ya go. One derailment to order.
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