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[Glowcat]

Knowing that my own perspective is probably lacking on comparison, I'm going to link Natalie Reed's article on the differences between Gender Identity and Gender Expression. It answers or expands on things people have already said in this thread.

As for my own view on gender roles, I'm rather certain from my own experience that they are nonsense which reinforces itself through subtle (and not so subtle) social sanctioning. If a boy tries to like "girl stuff" he will face anywhere from mockery, to bullying/violence, to hostile questioning, to stern reprimands from parents, all of which makes him uncomfortable or even afraid if the response is strong enough. Additionally, he will often find himself pushed towards supporting this sort of antagonism lest he himself become a target. Similar methods are applied when a girl tries "boy stuff", although the idea of a tomboy has become somewhat acceptable in comparison to men deemed too feminine. Not that there isn't still a constant pushing of tomboys to adopt the gender norms eventually, which is even inherent in the word 'tomboy' for it implies the appropriating of masculine interests instead of those being natural to the person in question. It's no wonder that people end up changing themselves to fit gender roles given the barriers placed by their social environment. The collective pseudo-will of society wants gender roles to exist and points to its forcing of them as further proof that they should be that way.

[Mutagen]

I agree that gender is a construct. Whatever particular type of organs and biochemistry you happen to posess (or not posess, as the case may be) says nothing about you as a human being, at least not fundamental terms (just as having brown hair or black hair says nothing (or light skin as opposed to dark skin, and so on and so forth).

[UltraValican]

I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but...
I'm perfectly fine with gender roles as they stand in "western culture", ignoring the extremes.
I'm fine with dudes wearing pink.
I'm fine with women in positions of power.
I'm fine with gays marrying. Hell, my barber is a lesbian.
I'm fine with people getting surgery to change their gender.
I could go into the things I'm NOT fine with, but that would be kicking a wasps nest in such an L+ forum like this. However, I don't feel any hatred towards the people who choose to do those things I'm not fine with, but I can't say I support their decision either.

[kaijyuu]

You listed pretty much all the big ones so I'm having trouble imagining what you have problems with Girls opening doors for guys, maybe?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Oh come on. This is a discussion forum, quit being afraid of discussion. I hate when people come into threads and are all "I have opinions we could talk about but you all are dern liberals so neyyh". If you're even going to mention it, go into it.

Here, I'll give you something contrary to total gender fluidity acceptance to start us off: I would never, ever be in a romantic relationship with someone not physically born female and who chose to remain as such, and would end a relationship immediately if I found out I was with a male-to-female transsexual posing as a born women.

Your move, Valican.

[kaijyuu]

Why not? Post op MtF is advanced enough you won't really be able to tell much of a difference, unless you're a gynecologist.

Unless you're interested in baby makin', of course. That's a big difference.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I am not interested in babies, trust me. I think I'll remain child free as long as I live.

I wouldn't because I am not into men (Edit: Physical sense) who were altered to appear as women (Edit: Physical sense). I am into women (Edit: Both senses.). I have nothing against transsexuals, but I could be no more interested in a MtF than I could be interested in a M. My orientation extends to this quality.

(Edited for clarity)

[kaijyuu]

But they are women. I question your "not having anything against transsexuals" if you believe otherwise.

[UltraValican]

You listed pretty much all the big ones so I'm having trouble imagining what you have problems with Girls opening doors for guys, maybe?

Of course not, it certainly would be a sight for sore eyes.
There are just  some things that rub me the wrong way, and just make me uncomfortable. In my opinion there's being who you want to be societal opinions be damned, and then there's forcing it on those around you. It's the difference between a "biological male" wanting to wear a dress, and a biological male wanting to use a women's restroom.In general things like gender are more "physical" to me than psychological.

Oh come on. This is a discussion forum, quit being afraid of discussion. I hate when people come into threads and are all "I have opinions we could talk about but you all are dern liberals so neyyh". If you're even going to mention it, go into it.

Here, I'll give you something contrary to total gender fluidity acceptance to start us off: I would never, ever be in a romantic relationship with someone not physically born female and who chose to remain as such, and would end a relationship immediately if I found out I was with a male-to-female transsexual posing as a born women.

Your move, Valican.

I didn't want a shitstorm on my hands
Alright, game on.
Its a bit of a dick move either way, but I'd probably do the same thing. I know this will sound contradictory to the whole "gender is physical to me" idea, but stuff like this is more art than science. More subjective, less objective. I would just handle it like any other break up, "We simply weren't meant for each other "yaddayadaa".

Again, to me gender is more a physical tribute than a mental one

But they are women. I question your "not having anything against transsexuals" if you believe otherwise.

Do you have to be gay to support gay marriage?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

But they are women. I question your "not having anything against transsexuals" if you believe otherwise.

They are women in the gender sense and they very strongly resemble women in the physical sense post-op, but the latter is not the same to me as actually being in the physical sense.

[Glowcat]

Right... so when somebody comes out to you after you've already become attracted to them and went on a few dates, suddenly telling you their genetics are different makes it clear you were never attracted to them in the first place. Oh, and the whole, "really just men trying to look like women" bit. Maybe UltraValican had the better idea because now you just look like a transphobic asshole... Congratulations on being brave about hating on minorities.

Not like there's even a huge difference between how men and women look given the proper hormones. Estrogen does most of the work. The only definite male aspect that needs to be changed is somebody's genitals, and even then not all transwomen feel as though they necessarily need SRS (or can afford it).

[kaijyuu]

But they are women. I question your "not having anything against transsexuals" if you believe otherwise.

Do you have to be gay to support gay marriage?

What?

If you want to compare this to homosexuality, here goes: It'd be requiring one to accept that love can exist between two people of the same gender and that it's equally valid, and not just tolerating the idea and humoring them out of a twisted sense of "courtesy," before one could claim that they have no problem with homosexuality. Similarly, before one could claim they have no problem with transsexualism, they'd have to accept that people can change their gender and that it is equally valid despite their birth sex being different, and not just tolerating the idea and humoring them out of a twisted sense of "courtesy."

But they are women. I question your "not having anything against transsexuals" if you believe otherwise.

They are women in the gender sense and they very strongly resemble women in the physical sense post-op, but the latter is not the same to me as actually being in the physical sense.

You'll have to pinpoint what exact difference turns you off before I'll accept this as not trans-phobic. Because if you're interested in "women," then any women should be valid, provided all the bits are in the right places. What bit currently isn't in the right place, which could potentially be fixed in the future?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Right... so when somebody comes out to you after you've already become attracted to them and went on a few dates, suddenly telling you their genetics are different makes it clear you were never attracted to them in the first place.

It changes the dynamic if someone reveals something to you that is able to place them outside your own orientation. That doesn't retroactively change anything, but it does change future things because you were ignorant of that quality in the past.

Oh, and the whole, "really just men trying to look like women" bit.

You're misunderstanding me. I recognize that transgendered individuals are genuine in their feelings. I just can't say I can include anything but women born as physical females in my spectrum of attraction. I am not claiming that the transgendered are "really" their born apparent gender.

Maybe UltraValican had the better idea because now you just look like a transphobic asshole... Congratulations on being brave about hating on minorities.

Maybe you're being a little rabid to condemn me. Congratulations on jumping to conclusions.

You'll have to pinpoint what exact difference turns you off before I'll accept this as not trans-phobic. Because if you're interested in "women," then any women should be valid, provided all the bits are in the right places. What bit currently isn't in the right place, which could potentially be fixed in the future?

It isn't a current issue or something that could ever be fixed. It's a matter settled far in the past. For me, what you are born as sticks as how I can feel towards you romantically. If you were born physically male then, and if I know that, regardless of your current status you are permanently outside of whom I can be attracted to. You have to be female in both the gender and sex sense and have to have always had been. That's the primary condition of whom I can be interested in, and by definition no transsexual woman can pass it.

Edit: Alright, my previous post was kind of ambiguous, hold on a moment.

[kaijyuu]

Um, dude, that's pretty much textbook transphobia. You can SAY you accept them as "really" women, but until you actually do accept them in every meaningful sense as women, that's a lie.

[Glowcat]

Right... so when somebody comes out to you after you've already become attracted to them and went on a few dates, suddenly telling you their genetics are different makes it clear you were never attracted to them in the first place.

It changes the dynamic if someone reveals something to you that is able to place them outside your own orientation. That doesn't retroactively change anything, but it does change future things because you were ignorant of that quality in the past.

And it's a completely superficial quality which would equally apply if a ciswoman lied to you about her birth sex. I'm not jumping too soon on anything. Your entire position on this the definition of bigotry when your "orientation" does a 180 after a transwoman's past comes to light. Sexual orientation doesn't do that. There are reasons a person can like or not like a person, but that's not sexual orientation.