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[Neonivek]

In a world without gender roles, men and women would be entirely equal in the workplace.

No you are thinking of something a bit differently.

A world without gender roles would see no problem discriminating against one worker for having specific biology that the other does not.

Then again maybe you are thinking about that and that "discrimination because of biology" isn't contradictory to equality.

[Nilocy]

I'm interested because you guys are all sticking to gender rolls in the binary gender model. What about those people who don't fall under male or female. Where do they go in your stereotyped worlds?

[penguinofhonor]

Karnewarrior, that argument is pretty much completely circular. Yes, you can assume a woman is more likely to be maternal/familial, but that's only because the gender roles are likely to have caused her to be that. I'll admit you could be recognizing that and arguing that it's functional, but I'd say that the benefits of being able to say "Oh, she's a stay-at-home mother" without actually knowing a woman are far outweighed by the problems caused by expecting every woman to do that. And really, outside of people who are about to die in a few seconds, how helpful is applying a stereotype really going to be?

And I fail to see how your race anecdote proves anything. Are all the kids in this school completely immune to the rest of society giving them subtle socialization that they shouldn't be friends? Are they all from the same social class, to rule out the fact that minorities are likely to be lower class and therefore have fewer experiences in common than the middle class white kids? Racism isn't absent just because the kids aren't harassing each other about their race.

[Nilocy]

Where is everyone getting these sig flags from. I want some : O

Penguin brings up a good point I forgot to mention. A lot of what we have on gender and assumed gender roles are circular in logic anyway. "I'm a man because I've been brought up a man because I was told I was a man". How many people here have actually tried to question their presumed gender and come to a different conclusion to what they had before because of becoming aware of this broken logic I wonder.

[Neonivek]

Well Nilocy, as a "Man" you arn't allowed to do that... Unless you are a "woman" in which case you must do it.

[Nilocy]

Well Nilocy, as a "Man" you arn't allowed to do that... Unless you are a "woman" in which case you must do it.

Boo!

[Truean]

Then there's however the crap I fit into things....

MtF Trans, but I don't even really know what to think about numerous conceptions of gender today, including the more modern and fluid one.

I, personally identify as what you might consider a traditional female role, though unfortunately I wasn't born that way . I either don't see a "continuum" or I'm on one end of it only. [shrugs]. I don't entirely get it and I can't really do jack about it I suppose. For the most part, I can't transition, perhaps ever. Thus I'm unable to really remedy the situation, go figure.

[TheBronzePickle]

I should hope our given roles in existence are a bit more broad and perhaps a little more deep than 'you are a male' or 'you are a female.' As much as I was formed into what I am now, I grew up into the role I was in, defined my own niche by my nature as much as by the shaping of others. Even the definition placed on me was more than 'a male', I was defined by my family, how I was raised, how I behave, what I like and dislike, and my personality. Sure, it's all a bunch of stereotypes put together, one of which happens to at least somewhat define me based on my sex, but I'd like to think that all my stereotypes are at least a little different from everyone else's, and that's good enough for me.

[Nilocy]

Then there's however the crap I fit into things....

MtF Trans, but I don't even really know what to think about numerous conceptions of gender today, including the more modern and fluid one.

I, personally identify as what you might consider a traditional female role, though unfortunately I wasn't born that way . I either don't see a "continuum" or I'm on one end of it only. [shrugs]. I don't entirely get it and I can't really do jack about it I suppose. For the most part, I can't transition, perhaps ever. Thus I'm unable to really remedy the situation, go figure.

*hugs* That sucks

[Neonivek]

Well Nilocy, as a "Man" you arn't allowed to do that... Unless you are a "woman" in which case you must do it.

Boo!

Yep big boo! Viva Double Standards!

[Truean]

Thanks Nil [hugs]

[Xotes]

Personally I don't really care either way. I'm a guy, I've always been a guy, and I like being a guy. I don't think anything's wrong with not fitting inside defined gender roles, but at the same time I don't think it's bad if you like being what you were born as.

[Truean]

For all the gripes about set gender roles, it's a bitch to have NO role and no place in things.

One of the real travesties, is how I've noticed a lot of people relate to people who are gay, or not gender normal.... Basically the notion that more or less, we don't have a place in the world like others seem to....

I have real problems relating to people without being fake. It isn't really an option. I an the unfortunate embodiment of "living a lie." It is amazing. I try to socialize mostly with women to avoid guys looking at me odd/not being ok with the idea that I'm attracted to guys (I.E. they might think I'll hit on them even though I won't). It's amazing though, how people who inevitably find out about me deal with it.

a.) They accept it, this is exceedingly rare.
b.) They outright call me an abomination....
c.) They fake being ok with it , but really they aren't.

Basically at some point the family, friends and love interests of of the girls I hang out with eventually ask who that guy is that she hangs out with.... At some point, you basically have to tell them you're gay. The parents wonder what you're doing hanging around with their daughters. The boyfriends/husbands certainly wonder what the hell you're doing around their girlfriend/wife. I've even had female friends of the girls I hang out with accuse me of having indecent motives until they figure out just how wrong they are.

The whole point is that the roles define how others see us and how we can fit in with them. The entire notion of them just not existing at all is so very foreign, because you'd either have to deal with them or replace them with something else. The pieces, us, require a place.... It is that simple, unfortunately. Otherwise you end up with a society exiling people.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I mostly don't care.

If you want to be referred to as male or female against your biological sex it doesn't matter to me. I'll use whatever pronouns you want out of common curtsey, unless you demand something stupid and unintuitive like "xe".

If you want to do something stereotypically male or female against your biological sex it matters even less, in that I don't take note of such things at all. I have better things to be doing than policing your gender.

The actual reason behind the rise of gender roles is less than known. While lots of things that reinforce gender roles have been identified their actual cause is somewhat mysterious, as they appear to have been around in some form since before we humans began recording history. They are similar to culture in that respect.

[kaijyuu]

Truean, I feel that most of your issues there are due to the place which you live. I realize your job keeps you tied down, but if you're feeling ever feeling adventurous one day, I do think you could be happy and accepted elsewhere (like San Francisco or something).