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[Ishar]

Same here, it's a welcome change, but I've got nothing to add, really.

[Mechanixm]

I appreciate all the work you put into it, but I'm not 100% that alphabetized==neat.  For example I think i'd prefer they be sorted by the noun (mithril, iron, steel) rather that the adjective (raw, coarse, rusty).  And at the rockforge, I don't care nearly as much about alphabet as that they're sorted by type of object: ammo -- weapons -- traps.  I'm not sure I remember what the sorting was before?
I wasn't going to complain but since you're going out of your way to ask for feedback

Sorting stuff by the type of metal wouldn't be a big deal.  But keep in mind that this also effects other things, like at the metalsmiths forge and stockpiles.  You'll be scrolling down your list looking for something and then all of a sudden there will be things out of place alphabetically and it will make people wonder what ELSE is out of order.   Personally, I like to keep the guess work out of finding things in the numerous lists in the game.  If we make it simple and consistent, then we should be able to find anything, no matter what it's name is, without having to wonder if there's an exception that has been made for it just because it may have an adjective in front of it or it belongs to specific category of things.  Also remember that not everyone is as familiar with the game as most of us are.  They are going to be spending a lot of time looking around for stuff, and this makes it much easier to find things consistently.

The best of both worlds, for this particular problem, is a RAW overhaul for naming things.  Instead of Rusty Iron it could be named Iron-Rusty.  The types of Mithril could be Mithril-Raw, Mithril-"Something for smelted bars", and Mithril-Patternwelded.  If we do something like that then things can still be alphabetized AND they can also be in their specific categories.  It's a thought... 

The rockforge was broken down in to three categories but basically had no sorting.  Now it's sorted alphabetically by ammo, weapons, and then armors (you can't see the armors in my screenshot...they are on the next page of the list).  I mix the traps in with the weapons because...they're weapons.  Again, moving that stuff around is super easy.  No big deal.

Thanks for the feedback. 

[Ishar]

Hm... maybe you could use dividing lines, like in the workshop list. Break the long lists apart by assigning them in categories: weapongrade metals, decorative metals, pure metals, alloys, fuel, refinable (?) materials (coarse mithril, rusty iron), whatever. The same tactic could be used to seperate trap components, weapons and ammo. I know it breaks the alphabetic idea a bit, and it's a lot of work, but since it's already in effect at the workshop area, it might be worth considering.

[smakemupagus]

>>  Now it's sorted alphabetically by ammo, weapons, and then armors

Cool, that sounds good

[sayke]

The best of both worlds, for this particular problem, is a RAW overhaul for naming things.  Instead of Rusty Iron it could be named Iron-Rusty.  The types of Mithril could be Mithril-Raw, Mithril-"Something for smelted bars", and Mithril-Patternwelded.  If we do something like that then things can still be alphabetized AND they can also be in their specific categories.  It's a thought... 

The rockforge was broken down in to three categories but basically had no sorting.  Now it's sorted alphabetically by ammo, weapons, and then armors (you can't see the armors in my screenshot...they are on the next page of the list).  I mix the traps in with the weapons because...they're weapons.  Again, moving that stuff around is super easy.  No big deal.

Thanks for the feedback. 

dude that "iron-rusty"/"mithril-patternwielded" idea is fantastic. i'm not sure what the ideal way to do it would be, but calling it something like "mithril alloy" rather then "patternwield mithril" would allow for those to follow after their base metal in the lists nice and neatly. i'm not quite sure what to do with the numerous cases where the adjective comes first, though: if there's pretty much only "pig iron" then who cares - let's just leave it in the P-section.

as for sorting weapons etc - i say either just keep it alphabetical or else go hardcore and break it down into categories like melee, ranged, and trap, sorted it by expense from there =D

are animals sorted this way too? that would be a *huge* deal... as it stands, trying to make a stockpile for captured goblins can be a serious pain in the ass...

finally what about cleaning up the raws in other ways? consistent indentation, consistant ordering, etc... for example, i know some of the gems have their tags ordered differently, making quick visual comparison difficult and possibly obscuring buggyness. iirc cut prase opals cannot be used for decoration... i noticed some problem there but i can't check on what it was right now.

[zenerbufen]

Iron Bar
Iron Bar, Pig
Iron, Rusty
Iron, Ore

that all looks fine to me... I think grouping them is a +, they could be alphabetized within alphabetized groups and still be findable/readable... It is also beneficial if you can tell what can be used for work, and what still needs more refining by the name without having to go look everything up. Something to keep in mind while renaming / reordering things.

As a DF noob the metals always confused me... Anything to clarify them I think would be good.

[smakemupagus]

Commas don't render properly, right?

[Mechanixm]

dude that "iron-rusty"/"mithril-patternwielded" idea is fantastic. i'm not sure what the ideal way to do it would be, but calling it something like "mithril alloy" rather then "patternwield mithril" would allow for those to follow after their base metal in the lists nice and neatly. i'm not quite sure what to do with the numerous cases where the adjective comes first, though: if there's pretty much only "pig iron" then who cares - let's just leave it in the P-section.

Whatever we decide to do, we need to hear from Meph and see what he wants.  Also, I'm not sure what modifying the name: field of the raw entry would do to other things in the game.  it may have unintended consequences that would break something else... 

as for sorting weapons etc - i say either just keep it alphabetical or else go hardcore and break it down into categories like melee, ranged, and trap, sorted it by expense from there =D

are animals sorted this way too? that would be a *huge* deal... as it stands, trying to make a stockpile for captured goblins can be a serious pain in the ass...

I'm currently going through ALL of the ITEM raws right now, sorting everything.  I'll post some before and after screen shots of what everything looks like early next week.  It should be pretty cool.

The animals and other creatures is going to be a whole project unto itself.  There seems to be a need/want for that one to be sorted so I will probably do it next.

finally what about cleaning up the raws in other ways? consistent indentation, consistant ordering, etc... for example, i know some of the gems have their tags ordered differently, making quick visual comparison difficult and possibly obscuring buggyness. iirc cut prase opals cannot be used for decoration... i noticed some problem there but i can't check on what it was right now.

I'm not sure what other value it would add to have a certain indentation to the RAWs.  It can be done, but it doesn't affect anything really, aside from reading through them.

The gems have been completely alphabetized in to one RAW list.  I was not aware that there were gems that couldn't be used for decoration.  I thought that was one of the defining characteristics of being a gem.  Perhaps that one Gem entry is missing a tag or something?  I don't know.

As I'm going through all of this sorting, I'm seeing A LOT of inconsistencies between the 1.9.5 RAWs and the RAWs in the MDF2 folders (duplicate entries, missing entries, etc).   I'm keeping good notes of everything I'm seeing and will be sending it on the Meph to review.

[Mechanixm]

Iron Bar
Iron Bar, Pig
Iron, Rusty
Iron, Ore

that all looks fine to me... I think grouping them is a +, they could be alphabetized within alphabetized groups and still be findable/readable... It is also beneficial if you can tell what can be used for work, and what still needs more refining by the name without having to go look everything up. Something to keep in mind while renaming / reordering things.

As a DF noob the metals always confused me... Anything to clarify them I think would be good.

I like the idea of grouping the metals, but I'm not big on changing their names.  The last thing we want to do is to make things harder to find or to change things that people are used to seeing. 

I think we need to choose from one of these two options:
Make the list 100% alphabetized, and groupings be damned...or...
Make the list mostly alphabetized with the metals in their own little groupings while not changing their naming convention. So...all of the iron stuff would be under I for iron, etc...  It would look like this:
Iron
Pig Iron
Rusty Iron

Iron Ore wouldn't be listed because that is stone, not a metal bar.

IMO, We need to keep it clean, consistent, and simple to understand.

I don't know if comma's or special characters render or not.  This can easily be tested though.  I will try to post a screen shot of that sometime later tonight or tomorrow.

[arclance]

Commas don't render properly, right?

It depends on your tileset.
Some tilesets replace commas and some don't.
Phoebus has a option to leave the comma in or to remove it depending on the users preference.
I assume once truetype works correctly this won't be an issue.

[smakemupagus]

I like the idea of grouping the metals, but I'm not big on changing their names.  The last thing we want to do is to make things harder to find or to change things that people are used to seeing. 

Yeah, I agree with this.  I don't think changing the names in generaly is a good idea, and either Alphabetical or Alpha-with-groupings would be fine.

[Flobulon]

Great work on the alphabetisation, Mechanixm

I'll finally get round to updating the caste guide infographic in the next couple of days, I promise! I've been musing over ways in which I could make it a touch more interactive and exciting, rather than it just being a big ol' wall of info, but I've had no solid ideas yet.

I was actually considering teaching myself some html/css and seeing if I couldn't convert the whole thing to that and embed it in the manual. It would certainly make updating it easier. Probably just a pipe dream. We'll see!

[McClaude]

I love the alphabetisation, nice work Mechanixm

I am new to the forums and stuff but i try to read the biggest part of it, but i have a question.

I have been looking for help. This is the issue.

I know that "seasonal drinks" are broken, and i dont use the brewery. That lead me to feed my little dwarves alcohol needs whit the STILL.

Then why is it flooded in alcohol?
Why it is not beeing packed in the barrels or pots?
Is the still broken too?

Spoiler: Screnshot as Proof (click to show/hide)

Pls someone share a bit or two of the experience or news, yes i have been searching... Cauze one of the features that i love is the selective drinks and boozes .

(sorry about the grammar and stuff, english is not my native language, grammar nazis INCOMING )

[Mechanixm]

Thanks for the reply McClaude.

The fact that the booze is sitting in the Still means you have plenty of pots or barrels to put booze IN, so that's not the problem.

Your problem probably stems from stockpile settings.  Either a) you don't have a large enough booze stock pile, or b) your booze stock pile is large enough but you have it set to 0 barrels or something.

Also, please try to keep this thread reserved for development questions. 

[smakemupagus]

The problem is that (since the mass/density/size change in recent vanilla DF patch, if not before) barrels aren't large enough to hold a full stack of drinks.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=115457.msg3570851#msg3570851