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[MagmaMcFry]

Let's play a game. You have a gun, and a random stranger has a coin. If he flips heads, you shoot him in the face. Would you be okay with that game?

No. And how is this related?

Let's slightly modify this game for the sake of my argument.
The game now works like this: You hold your hands behind your back, with a gun in your right hand. The stranger picks one hand, and if it is the hand with the gun, you shoot him in the face.

Let's say that everything you said in this thread is true, and you are hypothetically playing this game.
Now assume the stranger picks the right hand. Therefore you shoot him in the face. Earlier you said that everything that happens to somebody is all his own fault. Since being shot happened to the stranger, it is the stranger's own fault that he was shot in the face (after all, he could have picked the left hand instead). So it wasn't your fault that you shot him. But since shooting a stranger happened to you, it was your fault that you shot him. Blatant contradiction.
Now the stranger is (or was) suffering. Since all suffering is punishment, this one is too. Since you helped God deal out some punishment, what you did was good. But killing people is a sin, therefore what you did was bad. Another contradiction.
Now this suffering is punishment for a sin that the stranger or one of their relatives did, let's say (for argument's sake) that his brother murdered someone. If the stranger had picked your left hand, he would not get punished. Since the shooting-in-his-face is punishment for the murder, the murder would not have happened (since you don't need to be punished for something that didn't happen). This means that it is impossible for the stranger to pick your left hand, which means he has no free will. One more contradiction.

Why do you get better treatment then others?

You want me to understand actions of the being that is much more complex and advanced than me? It's same as asking bacteria to understand some action of a human
What I am very not sure about is that it was a result of God's action. It's quite possible that it was a result of some unknown laws created by God, including results of human actions, decisions, thoughts and prayers

Well, you got your better treatment from the humans treating you, not from God. Since the humans have free will, they could have chosen not to treat you better than others, so it is entirely the humans' fault for treating you better. God has nothing to do with that.

Also, if God is so much more complex and advanced than you, then why do you think he would care about you? It's not like you would punish individual bacteria for killing other bacteria, right?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

The whole thing is moot then, isnt it?

For practical purposes, a random system and an unknown system(especially one that is that unknowable) are identical.

I assume you pray, or believe that prayer has power? May I ask what the point it, when it is unfalsifiable if it even has an effect, or if it wont have the opposite effect to what the praying person intended?

Well, what you say is the same as not using physics because humanity don't know everything. And will not know.

I have a common sense, experience and intelligence to make decisions. I know that I may make something wrong. I know very well that my actions may lead to the opposite result.  It doesn't mean that I should stop doing anything.

[cerapa]

Well, what you say is the same as not using physics because humanity don't know everything. And will not know.

I have a common sense, experience and intelligence to make decisions. I know that I may make something wrong. I know very well that my actions may lead to the opposite result.  It doesn't mean that I should stop doing anything.

Common sense, experience and knowledge are explicitly for the purpose of determining the results of your actions(and things we have in regards to physics). If you have any of them regarding a god, then you can predict its actions(even if to a small extent), and the human<->bacteria analogy does not hold true.

[Fenrir]

actually, UR believes god is an asshole and he's comfortable with suffering and all that jazz.

Well, he said that pain and suffering were not the most important thing to God, but I thought that he still considered God a good fellow, as he is offering all manner of reasons to excuse God from responsibility for that suffering. It’s anyone’s guess how one could be the ultimate power but still evade ultimate responsibility.

My analogy goes unanswered. If it was flawed or unclear, I would appreciate it if you would tell me, UR.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Well, what you say is the same as not using physics because humanity don't know everything. And will not know.

I have a common sense, experience and intelligence to make decisions. I know that I may make something wrong. I know very well that my actions may lead to the opposite result.  It doesn't mean that I should stop doing anything.

Common sense, experience and knowledge are explicitly for the purpose of determining the results of your actions(and things we have in regards to physics). If you have any of them regarding a god, then you can predict its actions(even if to a small extent), and the human<->bacteria analogy does not hold true.

Ok, human>bacteria analogy is a little too extreme. I agree. Switch it to an adult >one year old child

actually, UR believes god is an asshole and he's comfortable with suffering and all that jazz.

Well, he said that pain and suffering were not the most important thing to God, but I thought that he still considered God a good fellow, as he is offering all manner of reasons to excuse God from responsibility for that suffering. It’s anyone’s guess how one could be the ultimate power but still evade ultimate responsibility.

My analogy goes unanswered. If it was flawed or unclear, I would appreciate it if you would tell me, UR.

Yep, exactly. In my set of beliefs God does care about  our suffering. But it's still necessary for his plans

And what analogy? I missed that. And lazy to search

[MagmaMcFry]

Yep, exactly. In my set of beliefs God does care about  our suffering. But it's still necessary for his plans

What are his plans?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Yep, exactly. In my set of beliefs God does care about  our suffering. But it's still necessary for his plans

What are his plans?

I don't know

[MagmaMcFry]

Then how do you know that suffering is part of it?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

*facepalm*
Because any being have plans. Because I believe that everything happens because God allows that. If it would oppose his plans he would stop that

[MagmaMcFry]

Then why do you care about God?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Because I like the world, because I believe that he is a loving father want to make it even better and I am willing to help  him in that task

[Descan]

Why do you get better treatment then others?

You want me to understand actions of the being that is much more complex and advanced than me? It's same as asking bacteria to understand some action of a human

I never understood that. Why did he make us so stupid? I mean, if I were an immortal omnipotent deity, why the hell would I create a species too fucking dumb to understand me? It'd be boring! So fucking boring! Especially since that very non-understanding leads to a great many of humans to reject him as nonsensical. And apparently that rejection leads to Hell/punishment. His fault, then.

Again, I don't understand that. Why make a changing universe if you're going to punish people in the most unchanging way possible? And if you yourself are unchanging! And why punish people for not being irrational if he made us to be capable of rationality?

I'm not saying he has to give us all the knowledge. All I'm saying is that it'd be nice and... you know, sane... to give us the capability to understand his high and mighty plan. So that we would actually want to go along with it?

[MagmaMcFry]

Because I like the world, because I believe that he is a loving father want to make it even better and I am willing to help  him in that task

You can't help him if you don't know his plans.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Descan
Your problem that you want to apply your logic to the God's. You try to  decide for him what is boring, what is right. What is  wrong. It doesn't work that way. He is not you.

At least you admit that you don't understand

Because I like the world, because I believe that he is a loving father want to make it even better and I am willing to help  him in that task

You can't help him if you don't know his plans.

I can by attempting to understand his plans and following that. It's enough

[Thecard]

Not if you misinterpret his plans.