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[Thecard]

Oh, I hate to deviate from the debate going on now, but I just remembered something. (Other Christians, you can disregard this next part if you're reading this.)

You're all the antichrist.

Technically, anyone who isn't Christian is an "antichrist" just like someone can be anti-war without being the physical embodiment of peace.

What most people mean by antichrist is actually just referred to as "the beast" coming out of he sea, or as the little penis horn on the head of some animal thingy.


Just thought I'd share that.  If anyone tells you Obama is the antichrist, just look right at them and honestly say "No, he's Christian, I'm the antichrist."  I swear, if I was atheist I would tell people that every chance I got.

[Wolfy]

This:

why dose Gravity exist if there is no God? what caused it to work that way?
God gives that answer, God can answer it because he knows the best ways to do things and in this case that was the best way

translates to:
Q: Why does gravity work the way it does?
A: Because God wanted gravity to work that way.
Q: Why did God want gravity to work that way?
A: Because that is the best way for gravity to work.
Q: Why is that the best way?
A: <insert reasons why gravity is a good thing here>
Q: Why does that make gravity better?
A: It just does.

where it should just go:
Q: Why does gravity work the way it does?
A: It just does.

In order for your theory to predict where the apple will fall, it still has to have all of the physics-y bits in there somewhere. Just saying "God" doesn't help you predict anything. And since adding in all those intermediate steps doesn't help you explain anything beyond what just physics will explain, it's just adding in a dangling node labelled "God" and re-labeling "The Physics of Gravity" as "God's Divine Will Regarding Gravity" without changing what the theory predicts will happen.

Basically, in order to justify adding in God to your theory, God has to do something. If God+Physics predicts the same thing as just Physics without adding God, then you don't need God. It's dead weight on your hypothesis.

How ever your assuming
it just dose, cant work with God, why cant it?
WHY do you need to justified Gods, thing but not the other side?
You dont need god no, but like with God you need to explain why he picked it, with out God you have to expelling why it made it that way, either you can use "just cause" with God or you cant use it for the other side
no other way around this at all

I'm sorry man but your picking what you want to list  here

Your also assumign its possible in the first place for Gravity to exist with out God, if god is needed for it then your idea fails

what proof do you have that god is not needed?

"just cause" dont mean God is not involed, it means it happens cause it happens
God may of caused it to happen, a bunny may of caused it to happen, it dont awnser why, and so it dont mean god is not in there


whats more your logic is still faulty, for the biggest reasson you claim this is based on whats more complex but then you cut out evrey single thing that's required for gravity to work and say "it dont matter" and say thats proof God is not real...
"just cause" dont tell you how it works, its making an excuse to say your way is faster.

[Reudh]

Wolfy, I have a question for you.

Hypothetically speaking, would it be possible for God to exist within a black hole?

[Wolfy]

Yes, if he wanted to...

I mean I believe he would, we CANT know of course.
I no of no reason he could not

[Grek]

Anything that Physics says is required for gravity to exist is also required by Physics+God for gravity to exist. In order to avoid having the stuff that physics says has to exist for gravity to exist, you have to stop believing that physics is true or stop believing that gravity exists. At which point you're just left with "God", and that doesn't explain anything on its own.

Otherwise, literally all you're doing is adding "...and also God exists and is the reason why all of that was created." to the end of whatever physical process you're explaining. It's just like adding, "...and also gravity unicorns exist and their unicorn magic is the reason why all of that was created." to the end of an explanation of gravity. It isn't helping. It's just adding useless junk at the end of your theory for no good reason.

Now, if we do discover some aspect of gravity that isn't explained by physics unless we also assume God exists, THEN we would have a reason to think that God exists. God existing would be explaining something. If saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ, Levitate!" could make things float, then you would have a good reason to think God exists. But nothing like that ever happens.

[Thecard]

Grek, out of curiosity, have you ever actually tried that before?

[Grek]

I have not specifically invoked the power of Jesus Christ to make things levitate, no. Back when I was religious, I prayed for other miracles, but it never worked.

But, let me try it.

Ok, no. The test object did not levitate.

[Thecard]

Yeah, I bet it's like that "you can't..." Like licking your elbow.  You know you can't but you try, just in case...

[Wolfy]

Anything that Physics says is required for gravity to exist is also required by Physics+God for gravity to exist. In order to avoid having the stuff that physics says has to exist for gravity to exist, you have to stop believing that physics is true or stop believing that gravity exists. At which point you're just left with "God", and that doesn't explain anything on its own.

Otherwise, literally all you're doing is adding "...and also God exists and is the reason why all of that was created." to the end of whatever physical process you're explaining. It's just like adding, "...and also gravity unicorns exist and their unicorn magic is the reason why all of that was created." to the end of an explanation of gravity. It isn't helping. It's just adding useless junk at the end of your theory for no good reason.

Now, if we do discover some aspect of gravity that isn't explained by physics unless we also assume God exists, THEN we would have a reason to think that God exists. God existing would be explaining something. If saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ, Levitate!" could make things float, then you would have a good reason to think God exists. But nothing like that ever happens.

So you dont think its possible the reason gravity works the way it dose ie becuse someone made it that way?

You think a car runs on it own and no one made it becuse its "simpler"
Show me one other time ever something is made form "nothing" in the sense of
It's adding something that can awnser that "why is that there" instead of saying "just cause it is"

To me God is why we are here, he made gravity the wya it is etc, so when you think Gravity needs extra to add God, as far as I'm concerdhe is the reasson, your logic dont work man, simpler == its the thing, ever. thats not even sound logic.
more so when we get in to this and you start saying "we dont need to know why it works"
but we have to know why God made it?
if you just said God made it, thats IT nothing more needs to be add, thats the same as saying "it just dose"
It adds nothing new, it just chnages "it just dose" to "God"
no more steps are added, stop saying they are, we will get no where if you keep using a double standard.

[Grek]

I think the problem is that there's a few different kinds of "why" that are being used here.

1. A practical why where what you really want to know is "How does this car work and how did it get made?" That's a practical, answerable question, and the correct answer is to talk about engine parts working together to turn tires and a car factory with a car company paying people to put together cars.

2. A behavioral why where what you really want to know is "What makes people want to make cars? What made them want to make this specific car?" where the correct answer is to talk about different car designs and what cars are used for and the history of the automobile.

3. A philosophical why where what you really want to know is  "Why does anything exist? What's the purpose of existence?" where the correct answer is to just shrug and say "I don't know. It just exists and doesn't seem to have any obvious purpose to it."

We need to know how gravity works, what gravity works on, who gravity works on, what could stop gravity from working, when gravity works, and what particles go around to make that work happen and things like that; but "What's the purpose for gravity existing in the first place?" doesn't really have an good answer.

[Wolfy]

So what are you saying now?
Are you saying that God can or can not exist and it dont matter?
or???

[Grek]

I'm saying that unless something happens that gives you a good reason to consider the possibility of God existing, you shouldn't bother thinking about God and whether he exists or not.

[Wolfy]

Except something did, I dont belive this stuff "just happened" with out SOEsort of power at work, and if I just live like I should not worry guess that will lead me? hell

I have multiple good reasons
some are pesronl, others are as easy as I cant physicality wrap my head around a God not being there, its like makes no sense with out

[Reudh]

Yes, if he wanted to...

I mean I believe he would, we CANT know of course.
I no of no reason he could not

But don't black holes consume all forms of matter and energy?

Is God as a metaphysical entity a form of energy?

For that matter, if you sent a person into a black hole, as their 'soul' is metaphysical energy, wouldn't it get sucked into the black hole and destroyed?

[Wolfy]

#1 it dose that to ALL known things, its possible it wont for those
#2 there may be things out side of God\souls that happen in space that put black holes to shame

What is God? i believe if he wanted he could change in to what ever he wanted, dose he have a prefers form? I don't know
and honestly if God is powerful then... he just "turns off" the black hole, or heck he may be whats on the other side, who knows.
(Star trek reference)

We dont know what a soul is, we dont know what type it is. so no you cant say it would be, becuse first we haveto know what it is and see it happen and we have not