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[IronyOwl]

zombie urist:

IO: You've voted Mr. D 3 times now. Why?

To get his attention, and remind him that I was still voting him.


Hapah:

IO: Why are you pressing on MrD so hard? It's obvious he's newtown.

UI: Because he's throwing up his hands in the newtown way! When they feel pressured, they give up instead of pushing back.

What do you think of this assessment now? Obviously you now know you were wrong, but why do you think you were wrong? What messed up your read?

IO: Please comment on the hammer you dropped on MrD, it felt out of character. I don't think you are scum, though. Maybe third party? I don't want to speculate more until you've said your piece.

This is... odd. Are you scum hoping you can subtly recruit third party me or something?

As for the actual question, I'm not entirely sure. I just felt like, uh, raging, I suppose. He was missing/refusing to partake in the entire point of mafia, and I felt it wasn't something we could just sort of deal with obliquely; he had to be told in blunt terms that he was fucking up.



Native:

IronyOwl. That last post was a bit extreme, don't you think? Most of what was directed at Mr. D was you complaining about how he's complaining about how you're asking him all them questions making statements. Assuming. It's out of character for you to blow up so hard on someone for something so little and ultimately irrelevant. A few things stood out that make me think you're scum pressing for a mislynch.

Refusing to answer any questions is not an irrelevant thing. Shutting down because he's got three questions in the queue is not an irrelevant thing. Not having an answer to "What did you think I just said?" is not an irrelevant thing. If he's going to shut down at that level, he needs to snap out of it or hang.

But tell me, assuming he hadn't been lynched, how would you go about getting a read on him, remembering that refusing to explain himself is petty and irrelevant?

Your reading comprehension sucks and that's going to get you lynched.

So you're saying that you're pushing for his lynch because his reading comprehension sucks and not because you think he might be scum?

You then criticize his answers and tell him how he got it wrong, but the closest you get to trying to convince us he's scum is by suggesting that he might not be thinking about his answers. That isn't a scumtell in itself - just poor play.

That wasn't intended to be a lynchvote, and the entire thing was directed at him, not at convincing anyone else. Why did you assume it was intended to convince anyone else?

Now here's what got me. You correct his "10,000+" statement by reposting your questions, proceeding to count them out for him, and yelling at him about how he's overreacting. You managed to fill more than half of your post regarding Mr. D with non-constructive whiny bullshit. You didn't add anything new, you didn't try a different angle, you didn't even really hunt. You just reposted your past questions and added commentary. If that's not buffering, I don't know what is. It's only purpose is to bully newtown into giving up and getting a free mislynch.

I felt the need to explain in explicit detail what he was doing wrong, because obviously the usual wasn't going to cut it at that point. The alternative was having him do that shit (ie nothing) until he got lynched, be that the current day or some point in the future.

And this is "buffering" to you?

Answer the goddamned questions or we'll lynch you as panicky shifty scum. No townie should have an excuse to not answer the kind of questions you've been handed.

This comes off as "Oh right, I'm supposed to be saying why he's scum. I should call him scum here!" to me. It's still "Answer the questions the way I want you to or we'll lynch you because you're an easy target!"

Other than the fact that he hasn't answered your questions in a manner that meets your standards, why else do you think he's scum? Because the way I'm seeing it he's more likely newtown than newscum and you're scum trying to get him to break with minimal effort on your part. The way you're attacking but not hunting him and the way he seems to have given up make me almost sure of this.

So now you're openly defending his handling of the situation. Why? I honestly don't understand what you see that was admirable or acceptable about that. Did you not actually follow how he was acting? Are you scum hoping he'd flip town to give you some dirt on me? Why don't you go into more detail for me about how he was being productive and what I should have been doing instead.



Bookthras:

Hmmm... While lynching scum D1 is satisfying, his flipping SK was less informative than I had hoped. Specifically, it doesn't clear IronyOwl's attack on him as it would have had he flipped mafia. That still rubs me the wrong way. Specifically, his tone, his insistence on the 7/10 odds thing, whether the ignored questions were five or a hundred, and so on. He said the right things, though, and Mr.D was surely scummy; so not much to hang a case on, but his attitude seemed scummy to me.

I don't follow. What was it that rubs you the wrong way about my attack on Mr. D?

[NativeForeigner]

NativeForeigner: "Nice"? Odd of you to say that. Why that choice of sentiment? What do you think you've learned from it? You ended the day voting IronyOwl, do you think he's scum?

"Nice" because that's the best D1 I've seen in a while. Typically a townie gets lynched and then NKed, occasionally town gets lucky and lynches a scumbag that slipped up, but in this game an anti-town third-party was lynched and another was NKed leaving town in a theoretically stronger position D2 than is typical.

I honestly didn't learn much from it. Since Mr. D flipped SK and not scum, Ironyowl's still possibly scum but I'm going to be taking a harder look at my case against him.

NF:

Huh, guess I was wrong about Mr. D.

Also a Serial Killer and a Lyncher in the first cycle, nice.

Why did you break the third rule of the mafia? And why did you leave this... feedback if you didn't have time for a proper post, anyway?

I wasn't trying to read the night's events, I simply commented on them because I found them more favorable than is common. I left the feedback because I was on briefly and thought it best to say something in case I disappeared for the weekend.

Ironyowl: I'll reply to you when I have more time tomorrow afternoon (PST).

[Bookthras]

IronyOwl:

I'm not entirely sure. I just felt like, uh, raging, I suppose.

Pheochromocytoma! (I miss House.)

I don't follow. What was it that rubs you the wrong way about my attack on Mr. D?

Some of what Native pointed out. Not so much the content of the attack; that was mostly kosher, but the tone of it. An easy example is when he (dumbly) got reversed that 7/10 odds vs. 3/10 odds thing. Yes, it was dumb, but it was not scummy, yet you beat him upside the head with it repeatedly.

It didn't seem you were pressing him to find out whether he was scum, but to make sure we knew you were not.

You are still doing some of that right here:

But tell me, assuming he hadn't been lynched, how would you go about getting a read on him, remembering that refusing to explain himself is petty and irrelevant?

"Yeah, look at me, how townie I am! I got a scum lynched! My actions were just and necessary, how else would you do it?"


Scelly9: That was an utterly useless post. I hope you find a chance soon to really become more engaged (yeah, yeah, relatives, but it'd better come eventually).


Hapah:

You are deliberately misrepresenting my statements. I clearly said why his lack of knowledge of scumtells was more incriminating (i.e., those who know them know to avoid them).

If I am misrepresenting them, it is certainly not deliberate. You saw a scum dropping huge tells, I saw a newbie without anyone to keep him in line.

That's not what I'm talking about. Sure, two people can interpret the same thing differently, but this is what you said:

I mean, he gives out just about all the resources at hand, explains why what he did was wrong, but then goes on to say that "it's more than he can chalk up to newtells". [...] your words and your actions don't quite match up to me.

It's not about how you saw him, it's about you saying that my words and actions don't match, and using that as justification to cast a useless vote. More about this:

At that point, my options were
A.) Pile another vote onto someone that is almost certain to hang anyway (there was about an hour and a half to go). Not much to be gained here.
B.) Vote no one.
C.) Vote anyone else.

You left out D) Vote for who you think is scum. Preferably with a case that justifies the vote, and a plan to test it the next day/night. Making a big deal of voting for "anyone else" reeks more, as I said earlier, of a move to be seen not to vote the lynch target, so if he flips town you can claim deniability.


Zombie: please give me your thoughts on Dariush and Hapah, and whether you found Native's first post of the day kosher or not.

[IronyOwl]

Bookthras:

Pheochromocytoma! (I miss House.)

D:

An easy example is when he (dumbly) got reversed that 7/10 odds vs. 3/10 odds thing. Yes, it was dumb, but it was not scummy, yet you beat him upside the head with it repeatedly.

It didn't seem you were pressing him to find out whether he was scum, but to make sure we knew you were not.

I don't think I spent an undue amount of time on that, considering how lazy it was and that being very, very specific and explanatory was probably important. If I could make an offhand comment and have him realize the issue, I doubt he'd have answered with that ratio in the first place.

You are still doing some of that right here:

But tell me, assuming he hadn't been lynched, how would you go about getting a read on him, remembering that refusing to explain himself is petty and irrelevant?

"Yeah, look at me, how townie I am! I got a scum lynched! My actions were just and necessary, how else would you do it?"

I really do want to know how he'd do it, because he seems to be perfectly fine with him refusing to answer anything. Aren't you curious about how he'd get a read on someone like that?

[Dariush]

I really don't like that Dar calls out NF for breaking the "third rule" when he did nothing of the sort. How would commenting on the SK we lynched say anything about the night actions? It seems more than a little jumpy on Dar's part.

Dar: Could you comment on the line above? And where is the list of "rules" located? (A quick look around here and on the wiki didn't turn anything up)

I don't like that you and Dar each have a vote and a FoS on me and Native.

And with two confirmed 3rd parties already, you said it best: I'm sure Toaster got creative with the role distribution.

I marked with brown the parts of your post that are noncommital bullshit. You were asked for hard facts and instead you spew crap about what you don't like.

And to answer your question, you broke 51th rule of Mafia: never ask where the list of rules is located. I sincerely hope you can take the hint now.

I wasn't trying to read the night's events, I simply commented on them because I found them more favorable than is common. I left the feedback because I was on briefly and thought it best to say something in case I disappeared for the weekend.

Why did you leave this feedback that serves no purpose other than displaying how town you are, because you are glad we got two anti-town deaths? You could have left just a note saying you are going to be absent or not do even that, as certain people did.

[zombie urist]

Zombie: please give me your thoughts on Dariush and Hapah, and whether you found Native's first post of the day kosher or not.

Both of them are acting pretty scummy. Native's first post is also pretty scummy, but I don't think its enough yet to be worthy of a lynch.

Didn't realize it was a bad thing to do. Sorry I guess. unvote

Uh. So you didn't vote him because you actually suspected him?
BMC, what happened with the 'only townies are lynched D1' mindset? Didn't want to pass a perfectly good bandwagon, did you?

Dariush, please explain why you switched your vote to BMC in this post.

If I had to vote right now (which I apparently do), I guess I'd go with Book. He's saying that MrD is making so many slipups that the case has merit, but in the same post
Splits hairs on MrD's alignment in the last RL (MrD was brother-to-a-townie, now said he was town last game, and Book call this "utterly awful").
Has to explain, to MrD, why what he did was wrong when he apologized for OMGUS'ing someone.
Encourages MrD to sign up for the BM that's in signups
Points out the resources in the thread title.
I mean, he gives out just about all the resources at hand, explains why what he did was wrong, but then goes on to say that "it's more than he can chalk up to newtells". I'm not trying to discourage you from giving advice, Book (it's good advice!), but your words and your actions don't quite match up to me.

Why did you feel you had vote then?

Everyone: Does anyone have a knowledge that they were protected from a kill last night?

[IronyOwl]

zombie urist:

Native's first post is also pretty scummy, but I don't think its enough yet to be worthy of a lynch.

Is there a reason you're not pressing him on it, then?

Everyone: Does anyone have a knowledge that they were protected from a kill last night?

I don't understand the point of this question, or why you're asking it now.

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

Bookthras:
Hapah: Bookthras
NativeForeigner: Dariush, IronyOwl
Dariush:
blackmagechill:
Scelly9: zombie urist
zombie urist:
IronyOwl:

Not voting: Hapah, NativeForeigner, blackmagechill, Scelly9

Day 2 will last until Wednesday, 8/1 at 11 PM EST.

[Hapah]

Book: Options C and D were functionally identical at that point though, as far as everyone else was concerned. I thought your actions seemed unusual, and (for lack of any harder suspicions) I voted you. What's so unusual about that?

Dar: You want hard facts? Fine. You misinterpreted (likely deliberately) Native's comment about MrD's alignment, You ridicule me when I ask for the list of rules that you apparently pulled out of your goddamn ass, and You are voting NF for no reason, as best I can tell. You got a case, or just more noise?

IO: I think that my read was screwed because I didn't even consider third parties (I've been RIGHT ON THE MONEY determining alignments lately. ~__~) I figured if he had a scumbuddy, they would encourage him to at least fight back, if not try to give him talking points for his arguments (it's in the scumbuddies interest to have their partner live, even if he is new). The fact that he just threw his hands up and said "Fuck it!" told me that he didn't have that voice nudging him forward, and so I read it as town. Wrong now, obviously, but that's how I got there.

And yeah, in hindsight, that post is odd. You blowing MrD away just seemed really out of character for you.

ZU: I suppose I didn't have to, but it was the best option I saw.

I'll see if I can get a post in that's not just answering questions tonight.

[NativeForeigner]

IronyOwl. That last post was a bit extreme, don't you think? Most of what was directed at Mr. D was you complaining about how he's complaining about how you're asking him all them questions making statements. Assuming. It's out of character for you to blow up so hard on someone for something so little and ultimately irrelevant. A few things stood out that make me think you're scum pressing for a mislynch.

Refusing to answer any questions is not an irrelevant thing. Shutting down because he's got three questions in the queue is not an irrelevant thing. Not having an answer to "What did you think I just said?" is not an irrelevant thing. If he's going to shut down at that level, he needs to snap out of it or hang.

But tell me, assuming he hadn't been lynched, how would you go about getting a read on him, remembering that refusing to explain himself is petty and irrelevant?

I never said that refusing to answer any questions was irrelevant. I said that his complaining about the number of questions you were asking was irrelevant. I thought that was pretty clear seeing how I stated it clearly in the bolded portions of my post above.

Keeping in mind that his complaints about the number of questions you were asking him is ultimately irrelevant, I would attempt to get a read on him the usual way - asking him question, reading into his actions, and pressing him on any scumtells he might have let slip.

That wasn't intended to be a lynchvote, and the entire thing was directed at him, not at convincing anyone else. Why did you assume it was intended to convince anyone else?

Even if it wasn't intended to be a lynchvote, that's what it turned in to. You really think that everyone's just going to ignore what you're saying to Mr. D because it's only directed at him? When you're making a case against someone like you were against Mr. D you're convincing other to vote him, regardless of whether or not you're actually addressing anyone else.

I felt the need to explain in explicit detail what he was doing wrong, because obviously the usual wasn't going to cut it at that point. The alternative was having him do that shit (ie nothing) until he got lynched, be that the current day or some point in the future.

And this is "buffering" to you?

It turns into buffering when more than half of your post consists of exaggerated ranting about how he's doing something wrong. You don't think something less than the eighteen lines would have sufficed? What did you really accomplish by padding your post with that drawn out rant?

So now you're openly defending his handling of the situation. Why? I honestly don't understand what you see that was admirable or acceptable about that. Did you not actually follow how he was acting? Are you scum hoping he'd flip town to give you some dirt on me? Why don't you go into more detail for me about how he was being productive and what I should have been doing instead.

If by "openly defending his handling of the situation" you mean "nearly all of his tells are synonymous with newbtowntells and you're approaching that like you're after an easy lynch" then yes. I never said that his complaining was admirable or acceptable, but that it should have had a much lighter impact on his alignment than you seemed to believe it had.

Why did you leave this feedback that serves no purpose other than displaying how town you are, because you are glad we got two anti-town deaths? You could have left just a note saying you are going to be absent or not do even that, as certain people did.

I felt that it was something worth commenting on. Posts that are just "Herp derp, Imma be absent" are boring.

[zombie urist]

zombie urist:

Native's first post is also pretty scummy, but I don't think its enough yet to be worthy of a lynch.

Is there a reason you're not pressing him on it, then?

Everyone: Does anyone have a knowledge that they were protected from a kill last night?

I don't understand the point of this question, or why you're asking it now.

Ehh. At this point, I honestly don't think he's scum. I'm going to wait awhile before answering the second question.

[blackmagechill]

I don't think Native is scum either, I think he was commenting on how lucky were with the lynch and the NK.

ZU: Why the pause?

[Dariush]

Zombie: please give me your thoughts on Dariush and Hapah, and whether you found Native's first post of the day kosher or not.

Both of them are acting pretty scummy. Native's first post is also pretty scummy, but I don't think its enough yet to be worthy of a lynch.

Let's see: you're voting Scelly, thus probably considering him scummy and you consider me, Hapah and NF scummy also. Without so much as stating why. Or proceeding to do anything about it. Yeah, you're scum, ZU.

Dariush, please explain why you switched your vote to BMC in this post.

In two consecutive posts BMC said that 'only townies are lynched D1' and then immediatly jumped onto the bandwagon, discarding his previous statement.

Why did you leave this feedback that serves no purpose other than displaying how town you are, because you are glad we got two anti-town deaths? You could have left just a note saying you are going to be absent or not do even that, as certain people did.

I felt that it was something worth commenting on. Posts that are just "Herp derp, Imma be absent" are boring.

Boring. That's your explanation. Sure.

Dar: You want hard facts? Fine. You misinterpreted (likely deliberately) Native's comment about MrD's alignment, You ridicule me when I ask for the list of rules that you apparently pulled out of your goddamn ass, and You are voting NF for no reason, as best I can tell. You got a case, or just more noise?

Sure, just overreact and give a totally irrelevant statement. I said that you didn't give hard facts to Book's request and you turned into a hyper-emotional schoolgirl.

[Hapah]

Dar: You're still voting NF for what appears to be no case. Spell it out.

[Dariush]

I'm not voting hi...

Er, wait. That blue ZU in my last post was meant to be red. I edited the post several times before posting and forgot to change it in the last edition. My mistake.