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[smakemupagus]

With glass industry, if you want to hold off until after I do it you can borrow if we were going the same route with it.  Were you going to do decorative glass too, or just war grade glass?

cobalt glass:  cobalt + clear glass (optional: aluminum too), decorative, maybe for magic/alchemy too, approximately an IRL recipe
ruby glass:  gold + clear glass, decorative, maybe for magic/alchemy too, approximately as IRL

ashland glass:  malachite + green glass + moonstone:  ~mithril grade light metal, similar to TES glass recipe
ebonglass:  obsidian + (something?)  :  ~wolfram grade heavy metal, sort of inspired by TES ebony

But, 5 kinds of war-grade glass is probably too much?  So if I implement the above in Ashlander's Glassforge in Orc fortress I'll probably keep only Crystal glass from the original Glassforge, if that.

[Meph]

Have a look at this. http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4071

Pickerel wrote 15 types of glass and 500+ reactions just about glass. Anything you might ever want with glass, there it is. All real life based, realistic to make, with attention to detail. All of them are made the historical way with 16th century tech.

[smakemupagus]

That is indeed VERY awesome  Are you thinking you will implement something like that? 
Too bad we can not use nested menus the way toady does.  Otherwise this is much to much for one or two workshops.

For the level of realism I'm shooting for in Orc Fortress, I'm ok with ruby glass being made from gold directly rather than colloidal gold perchlorate. 

[Meph]

Its way, way too much. Its 15 workshops, all glass. I am afraid that when I touch this mod I contract some sort of strange realism-detail disease, its so accurate and extensive that its scary.

Warmist mentioned something about those menus being possible in theory. There is also a script that can rename hardcoded vanilla buildings/reactions, maybe you should talk to him a bit. Should be good for total conversions.

[Meph]

Here is my idea for the guilds.


I will make a new workshop section called Guildhalls. Each guild will get one building, called the Guildhall. You can build a "Farmers Guildhall" for example. Dwarves can join guilds in these, as well as run special reactions that only affects guildmembers. In total I have 15 guilds. I would move all "blueprints" for related items into these guildhalls. That means you need a "Masons Guildhall" before you can build a stonecutter, rockforge and similar buildings. I havent decided on the price yet. I would like to use coins (buy a permit, buy a blueprint), but dont know about the balancing yet. You need metal for coins, so were do you get the coins for the smiths guild? I havent decided on that part yet.

Each guild will get a special pet, called "guildname sign". These will give small buffs to all guildmembers nearby. For example a "masons guild sign" will give all members of the masons guild a buff, possibly a small speed boost. But only in a close vicinity. This means you put up signs near your stone-using workshops, cluster your industry in one area, and hopefully will lead to a nice, distinct area in your fort. Empty "signs" can also be bought and transformed in the guildhall. Signs will also be spawned in the Guildhall, but cant be moved. This means your guildhall should stand in the center of your industry area.

Dwarves without a guild have very slow learning ability. Possibly extremely low, like 1% of vanilla df. Yes, I am serious. Upon joining a guild, the dwarf will transform into a "guild apprentice", getting 25% learnrates, and after being an apprentice for one year, will transform into a "guild journeyman", getting 75% learnrates. After another five years, will transform into a "guild master", getting 150% learnrates and some bonusses depending on guild type. The leveling system for the military, religious and magic guilds are most likely the same, just with different wording. Mages could learn a spell on each lvl-up, military automatically gains combat buffs...

Migrants would mostly arrive without a guild, but of course guildmembers will migrate as well.

The Merchants Guild - House Nish (Trade)
Governs the professions of organizer, record keeper, appraiser, pacifier, leader, negotiator, persuaders.
Higher social skills.
Lower physical attributes.
Higher mental attributes.


The Carpenters Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
Governs the professions of Bowyer, Carpenter, Woodcutter, Wood Crafter and Wood Worker
Get some bonus from wielding chopping axes.


The Masons Guild - House Lam (Stone)
Governs the professions of Building designer, Engraver, Mason, Stone Crafter, Miner and Stoneworker
Get some bonus from wielding picks.


The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
Governs the professions of Ambusher, Animal Caretaker, Animal Trainer, Animal Dissecter, Trapper, Beekeeper and Ranger.
Higher recuperation, at peace with wildlife.


The Smiths Guild  - House Zuntir (Anvil)
Governs the professions of Furnace Operating, Armorsmith, Metal Crafter, Blacksmith, Weapon Smith, Metal Smith and Wood Burner.
Small fire resistance, higher strength.


The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
Governs the professions of Glass Maker, Gem Cutter, Gem Setter and Jeweler.


The Crafters Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
Governs the professions of Glazer, Potter, Bone Carver, Clothier, Tanner, Leather Worker, Spinner, Weaver and Craftdwarf.


The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)
Governs the professions of Fish Cleaner, Fish Dissector, Fisherdwarf and Fishery Worker.


The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
Governs the professions of Brewer, Butcher, Cheese Maker, Cook, Dyer, Grower, Milker, Miller, Thresher, Presser and Farmer.


The Doctors Guild - Houses Thunen (Life)
Governs the professions of Diagnose, Set bones, suturing, wound dressing and surgeon.
Allows members to heal mod-included diseases.
Immunity to diseases.
Higher empathy.


The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
Governs the professions of Mechanic, Pump Operator, Siege Engineer, Siege Operator and Engineer.
Get NoFear for operating siege engines without fleeing.
Only guild that can set up landmines and turrets.


The Apostles of Armok Chapter - House Rath (Temple)
Governs the profession of Strand Extractor. (which is used for "apostle of armok" in the mod)
Allows special effects when using magical temple reactions.
Allows members to exorcise possessed dwarves.
Allows members to exorcise undead, putting them to rest.


The Alchmists Guild - House Anzish (Alchemy)
Governs the professions of Wax Worker, Alchemy,  Soaper, Lye Maker, Potash Maker and Herbalist.
Not affected by negative sideeffects of certain reactions; No self-poisoning in the toxicist, no explosions in the chemist


The Mages Guild - House Larul (Sorcerer)
Governs the professions of Druid (magic nature) and allows to learn spells.
All magic buildings would require a member of this guild to run the reaction.
Only mages guild members can become sorcerers.
Sorcerers get a new spell each time they raise a level.


The Legion of the Dead - House Rash (Death)
Governs military skills
Subgroups: Melee or ranged.  (Order Libash - Axe, Order Arush - Bow)
Axe would just be a symbol for melee, the Bow a symbol for ranged. I wont do a group for each weapon skill, that would be way too much micromanagent.
Higher strength, endurance, agility, toughness.
Lower empathy, social awareness.
Higher healing rate, likes fighting.

Questions and things that concern me:

Should guildhalls also be used to create items?

For example special armor/weapons for legionnaires, or special picks in the masons guild, special reactions for apostles in the guildhall? I would have to move reactions from magic building, temples and such into the guildhalls, but on the other hand it makes perfectly clear which reactions can only be done by guildmembers. Otherwise I would simply mark the reactions in the buildings with an (*) behind the reaction name. "Transform into magmamancer (*)" "Exorcise a possessed dwarf (*)"

How bad/good would the micromanagement be?

On the one hand its less castes then the mod currently has. Instead of 25 only 15, plus the 6 mage types would be merged in. One the other hand it might break some features, for example transforming a possessed dwarf into a guildmember will automatically cure him (since he is a different creature then). I can circumvent this by making him not transform, which is either a dead giveaway or will confuse people, because they assume the transformation is bugged. On the other hand you can finally control which dwarf is member of which caste, because you can assign dwarves to guilds yourself.

Should this change be optional?

I know, I know. Everyone will shout Yes. But this is a major change and completely changes the game balance. Its also great lore-wise for succession forts. Its also, and this is important to me, extremely difficult to do as an optional setting. Its 15 buildings, a lot of reactions, castes, sub-castes, skill learn rates, natural skills, items/materials that use itemsyndrome to apply buffs, the guild-sign "pets", the overhaul of the magic system, I most likely have to change how both possessions and cults work... wow. Again, on the other hand, people that wont like the guild system will be put off by it, because it is ideed a massive change for players.

Are the guild sections ok like I did them?

I put wood burning into the smiths section for example, because they still operate a furnace while doing so. Or the lye, soap, herbalist and potash making in the alchemy section, even if they are farming skills officially.

Better names for Animal Handlers Guild, Doctors Guild and the Legion are welcome. Also, I personally think a fishers guild is a bit unneeded. Fishing is overpowered as it is, and historically those guilds only existed in harbortowns with big fishing fleets/vessels. Not for lone fishermen on ponds.

[smakemupagus]

Nice!  Very cool.  But, also, feedback

Personally I would have designed it so that Guild membership is not mandatory for every dwarf, like 75/100/125/150 learn rates instead of 1/25/75/150. Or:  Only "expert" crafts skills are subject to the extreme penalties, and enough of the common "peasant" labors are normal that if you have ~50% dwarves unguilded you're OK.  Once it becomes mandatory for every dwarf then I think that emphasizes some of the concerns you mention, like possibly becoming a management chore instead of a fun dynamic.

But of course, when it comes to it, you should do what you like  

Is there any way to do the effect similar to the Guild Standards without the summoning reactions, which are still pretty crazy even with autosyndrome (you saw the recent report with the 250 treants, right?).

specifically i think i would let the peasants do these jobs without penalty

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

woodcutter
mason (dwarves, after all)
miner (dwarves)
ani caretaker
furnace
woodburner
tanner
spinner
everything fish related
milker
thresher
presser
pump operator
plant gathering
some peasant weapons (dagger, spear, crossbow?)

[ed boy]

I would object to the guild system being something that your dwarves have to join, mainly because it would make small population forts unviable.

[Meph]

I can see plant gathering not being part of a guild, but "herbalist" sounds too fitting for the alchemists guild. I just have to think of the druid from asterix&obelix. ^^

Fishing is a bit silly, I admit, and I probably scratch that. Masons are absolutely in a guild. They are like the guild of guilds, the grandfather to all... thats what it started with essentially.

Milker doesnt really matter if its in a guild or not, its done anyway, like butcher or shearer. Thats just flavor, a legendary butcher is just as good as no butcher skill at all.

Woodcutters and miners I dont know about. One the one hand you need them in the very start and they do manual labor, so no guild-learning required. On the other hand they are some of the few jobs that have tools assigned (pick&axe) and I can give them boosts through that.

Guildsigns I can just transform from other pets, like I did with the "empty wards". Just take a few at embark for 1 embark point or so. But I cant do it without the pets...

Skill learn rates I had 50/75/100/125 first (peasant/apprentice/journeyman/master) but thought that this is way too weak. I would rather do 0/50/100/150, now that I think of it.

The biggest problem I see for micromanagement is that people dont know about workshop profiles, and that huge migrant waves could be anoying. ^^ Assigning labors with Therapist is easier then ever (thanks splinterz) but assigning dwarves to guilds would have to be done manually.

@ed boy: I like that. Small fort, 20 dwarves? Sorry guys, you cant have everything. No morul with all skills legendary anymore. Small population forts would still work, but they would be harder. I am all for making the game harder.

[leafar]

having control over the guilds is great, BUT :

I would rather do 0/50/100/150, now that I think of it.

i strongly vote against that
the 50/75/100/125(or 150) version is way more reasonable in my opinion - if a dwarf does nothing but e.g. stonecrafting all day long, he should get better at it - and this way it needn't be optional, as the penalty is medium

and i think the guild-system shouldn't be all that blown up (for start at least)
i suggest to only do a single guild's hall that is to be build mid-game(whenever that is ^^) and that includes joining for *all* guilds
nothing more: no items/singns/etc.

if it turns out to work well and people like it, than further additions could be discussed
adding the whole batch of 15 new buildings seems like a lot of clutter and it would be somewhat mandatory early on as the penalties are heavy - but what i like about MW is that you can do so many things

so much for now

[Meph]

I had a guildhall like that earlier in the mod. Allowed you to join the legion, the crafters guild, the smiths guild, the nobles guild. Without truetransform that caused problems and I had to remove it, but people really liked it.

My idea with 0 skill learn rate is radical, I know.

Spoiler: Ingame screenshot. This is how I imagine it in the end. (click to show/hide)

Possible reactions could be all the blueprints needed for buildings of that industry. For example all forges need a very cheap, simple to make item from the Smiths Guild. And the glassforge, gemcutter and gemforge need one item from the Jewelers Guild and so forth.

I could also add storage reactions, for example "store 50 logs", which is simpler to stockpile, and can be unpacked later if needed. Great for fortresses with 1000 metal bars. Pack them into crates, have only the crates stored. Thats 20 crates instead of 1000 bars, which helps FPS a little and stockpiling a lot.

You can also make the guildsigns there, which buff guildmembers in close vicinity.

And maybe create guild specific items, like special picks, chopping axes, armors for legionnaires, magic wands in the mages guild...

And here the ingame menu. You can also build the title, it will spell "guildhall". Luckily the word is exactly the size of the building, so you can combine them. Currently unsorted, I would put them in alphabetical order and put the chapterhouse and leagion headquarters together, either at the top or very bottom.

Spoiler: Ingame menu (click to show/hide)

[Fungus]

Hey... If I remember correctly isn't it possible to limit the maximum level of a skill? You could have it so that anything over, say, 10 isn't possible without guild membership. Legendary status is only possible with Guildmasters. I wouldn't mind having a lower skill rate on top of that, but I think that's a more realistic way to do it (if possible).

[Meph]

You sadly remember incorrectly. Its not possible.

[smakemupagus]

>> Assigning labors with Therapist is easier then ever (thanks splinterz) but assigning dwarves to guilds would have to be done manually.

Yeah, this actually sounds kind of worrisome.  Just taking 5 dreamwalkers and assigning them all to be sorcerers is sort of annoying ... You have to go to therapist and nickname them all, go to Workshop profile and add them all from the huge list, then every time one of them changes you remove from list so he doesn't do the reaction over and over. 

If you want to keep everyone content you can always use these Guildhalls as the core gameplay mechanic for Human Fortress

>> 0/50/100/150

I do actually think this is better than the original, since the Journeymen are at 100.

>> Woodcutters and miners I dont know about.
>> One the one hand you need them in the very start and they do manual labor, so no guild-learning required.
>> On the other hand they are some of the few jobs that have tools assigned (pick&axe) and I can give them boosts through that.

Just a thought, the learning curve doesn't have to be so steep for every single guild.  So yeah maybe 0/50/100/150 makes sense for jewelers.   But I feel like an unskilled peasant could start learning how to swing a pickaxe, so the "Laborer's Union" could be 50/75/100/125, and still have a guild so they can get their steam-magic drillhammers or whatever

Regarding items, you could still make a "jeweler's loupe" hat and require players to make a civilian squad with a Hat uniform if they want to use it.    Actually woodcutter's axes are a little bit more annoying in a way, because the woodcutter's uniform is hidden, and you can't access it to assign specific weapon.

[fasquardon]

I had an idea for linking guildhalls with noble positions - if it is even possible.  So guild members have certain bonuses, but they are also nobles, with the consequent problems that brings.  Means that a fortress couldn't make too many guildmasters without being brought down by all the mandates, for example.

I think your (Meph's) suggestions sound quite complex, and like they'd be unfun to play with.  I'd prefer to have a few guildhalls that did a few things and for those things to be worth the trouble of grappling with a new layer of complexity.

The idea of guildsigns is an interesting one, and could certainly lead to me laying out my fortress differently.  I am not sure if it would really add any fun to my games though, which makes me dubious if they are worth the trouble of implementing.

I think if I were doing the guilds I would have:

Harvester's guild - fishing, farming, woodcutting, fishing, animal husbandry, misc agricultural tasks
Dwarfy guild - masonry, rock crafting, mining, smithing, metalcraft, jewelcraft, engineering
Crafting guild - the cloth, leather, bone and wood crafts + carpentry & pottery
War guild - for the military
Cultists guild - for priests and magicians
Intellectuals' guild - doctors, administrators, merchants and social dwarfs apply here

With maybe removing masonry and mining from the dwarfy guild and removing the Harvester's guild and calling all those the "peasant skills".  Like Smake says, peasants having their own place isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Making guilds a core mechanic for humans sounds pretty interesting too.  Alot better than the idea of making them praying machines, in my opinion.  It also has a pleasing symmetry to how real humans work - labour specialization is an important part of why we're a successful species.  Without guildhalls, humans would be much worse that dwarfs, but with guildhalls and a good mix of specialists, they would be equal to dwarfs.  Has a nice feel to it.

Now, dwarfs and humans could both have guildhalls - but the humans would have better guildhalls, and worse non-guild stats.

fasquardon

[Vherid]

Like I said in the other thread, you could totally do religious based things with this system too.