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[Levi]

I enjoyed it.  I figure better characterization can only be good for gaming.

[JanusTwoface]

It really is the question of quality and determines whether or not this entire thing is worth listening to

It's only 23 minutes. Hardly a large waste of time even if it was particularly useless. (Granted, that's only part 1, part 2 isn't out yet). I just watched it. I think it's actually a pretty interesting look at the idea of the damsel in distress. It runs through the history of the trope (from way before video games) and takes a closer look at Mario and Zelda games in particular.

There's a lack of hard numbers that I would have liked to see (how often it occurs, how many male/female protagonists there are; weighted by game popularity) and there's nothing that I didn't already know in it, but those are the biggest problems I had with it. It is a problem and it's good that someone is talking about it. It probably could have been done better, but it definitely could have been done worse.

C'mon, guys, it's all actually in the video.

Times like these makes me happy I decided NEVER to click on links people post that don't have any explanation whatsoever.

there is a 50/50 chance this video link is stupid.

The first time I read this I thought that you knew what the link was for and was commenting about the contents of it (since your previous post was about deciding to watch it).

Now I think you were just talking about being rickrolled, but really? On the greater Internet, sure. But I'd say the chances of something like that here on the DF forums--in this thread in particular--are much much lower than 50/50. Plus, you can tell that it's a YouTube link by hovering over it (so that rules out the worse of the Internet) and a glance at the title once clicked would be enough to tell you the content.

[Neonivek]

I don't know I clicked on my fair share of Bay12 links that were stupid.

[PanH]

I don't know I clicked on my fair share of Bay12 links that were stupid.

And yet you're still alive.

[Neonivek]

I don't know I clicked on my fair share of Bay12 links that were stupid.

And yet you're still alive.

But I'll never be the same again. As if each stupid link I click on takes a little bit of my very soul.

[MorleyDev]

On the topic of Torment, oh hell yes! Also wow, $2000000 in as 2 days? 0_0 That's quite impressive. I'm kinda surprised people didn't know that the whole "pre-production team and development team" was pretty common for how development studios work. Otherwise you have people sitting around twiddling their thumbs and sucking up money without any tangible output, or they're people who you'd basically have to contract repeatedly, then lay off when their part is done and give them first dibs on being rehired when the next project comes around. Actually being able to keep them on as full time employees is better for everybody involved, especially in an industry famous for it's inherent instability.

Going to kickstarter for this also makes sense, since Brian Fargo is very dissatisfied with his experiences with publishers and this is the point where they're normally be making the rounds with the pitch to publishers. So yeah, fully support this endeavour and the increased openness of the development process and awareness of that process it brings.

But I'll never be the same again. As if each stupid link I click on takes a little bit of my very soul.

Curses, people are starting to catch on to the master plan to slowly drain their soul until all that is left is a shallow husk with an unnatural hunger for human brains...

[nenjin]

As I said before. I want to see one million dollar success before I go running out to support a second. Because frankly, we're still riding on hopes and dreams as far as all of these larger projects are concerned. Almost none of the big Kickstarter successes (including Banner Saga) have actually produced the thing they're marketing yet. Wasteland 2, for how good it's looking, could turn out to be a buggy, half-finished game by the time it ships.

"Oh this is how business has always been done" doesn't sway me either, particularly when it's followed by statements about how publishers and "business as usual" was bad in the past.

Put another way. Publishers would be just as sketchy about backing a game for $20 million then backing a second game for $20 million before the first game is even halfway through production. That's led to catastrophes before. Because suddenly there's no publisher, the rules are somehow different? I don't feel that way.

And honestly. They need to run a million dollar campaign to keep their writers employed? Mmhmm. Right.

I think there's a point at which even liked and respected devs can get greedy, especially when they are beholden to no one except the internet.

[MorleyDev]

Writers, concept artists and other roles related to the game mechanics, art styles and some programmers and modellers to prototype basic ideas and test them. Most of whom are probably on 30k salary upwards. For about 6 months. Plus if they kickstart, they can be sure they'll have the money to produce the game, meaning all of the money they spend keeping those people employed and working isn't wasted.

Also Wasteland 2 was ETA'd October this year, so if that still holds it's actually about 8 or 9 months in development with about 7 left, so it's actually past the half-way mark. The timelines sync up pretty well for the "pre-pre-production" on the next project to be finished, and pre-production about to start or just started, which is where the kickstarter also starts.

But I'm coming from the point of view as someone with experience in a software development studio, whose seen the inner workings of those places and heard the stories and the tales of what other parts of the software development industry is like from co-workers. So my perception is gonna be different to other people, and if you aren't comfortable yourself that's fine. I'm just explaining why I'm a-ok with this ^^

[MaximumZero]

So, just a heads up, I'm mulling a kickstarter campaign for my game. I'm not sure anything will actually come of this for a while now, but I'm mulling it, nonetheless.

[penguinofhonor]

My reasoning as to why Zelda tends to be captured is that as the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom she forsees that instead of fighting Ganon with her armies behind her, that the best thing for her people is to surrender

And... she actually tends to be right. Heck in Twilight Princess that is probably what saved the entire kingdom.

Yeah, and I could probably write a story to justify any sexist stereotype or trope, but justified in the story and justified in a social context are entirely different things.

You can see pro-slavery literature for this - all the racist stuff that gets done in there makes perfect sense within the context and world of the story, but it's still a goddamn story where you're justifying slavery. You can draw up all sorts of examples for why the slave is super happy to serve his master because his master treats him so well - the story is full of them. But what's in the story is often constructed purely to hold up the problematic parts, so of course it's going to make sense if you only use evidence from within it.

[Neonivek]

Yeah, and I could probably write a story to justify any sexist stereotype or trope, but justified in the story and justified in a social context are entirely different things

I am just explaining the context as far as within the game. It isn't a justification for her steriotype it is a justification for why she, a character who is competent and the owner of the triforce, always tends to get captured by Ganon and have her people enslaved even though by all means she could put up more of a fight (or just outright escape).

But here is the thing. Penguin of honor. The Damsel in distress isn't a "Sexist steriotype" in it of itself. Which I am glad the video picked upon on.

Slavery is a problem in it of itself.

So there is a real issue with your response as it pertains to mine, both in what you are comparing to and how you chose to interpret what I said.

Though on that same line there is no justification required for Zelda.

[Draco18s]

As I said before. I want to see one million dollar success before I go running out to support a second. Because frankly, we're still riding on hopes and dreams as far as all of these larger projects are concerned.

Agreed.

I mean, I totally understand what they're doing, I'm just not jumping on the bandwagon.

[UltraValican]

So she finally did it, eh.  I was looking froward to  playing Star Wars: The Told Republic: You just just got fucking scammed edition. How unfortunate.
I would normally find "disabling ratings and comments" scummy , but given her circumstances its very understandable.
As for the quality of the video, I seriously doubt she needed all that money. It' basically the same as her other vids, barring some sweet ass transitions but that's irrelevant to the heart of the matter: She really didn't say anything. Sure, she provided some interesting trivia, but she hasn't said anything new. I can't call her factually wrong or really disagree with anything she said. Because she said nothing at all. I'm not going to go into some of the cherry picking used for the Mario examples, I trust she'll talk about Peach's roles in Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario later.The fact they aren't main games seems like a piss poor excuse not to talk about them.

Concerning Zelda, I've never actually played a Zelda game. I do know Zelda fights alongside you in Spirit Tracks(As suit of armor), but that's about it.  I really don't have anything to say about that.

The Kyrstal incident was pretty fucking despicable, but I'm not surprised. Nintendo is allergic to new franchises.

All in all, I'm not really impressed or outraged. I'm waiting for the next installment with baited breath, where she talks about Satan trying to get his Cloven hooves on some human boob.  I expected more, but it looks like shes playing it safe. She doesn't want another Bayonetta on her hands.

[Neonivek]

The Kyrstal incident was pretty fucking despicable, but I'm not surprised.

It was more that they weren't going to do that game PERIOD but as a Starfox game it was suddenly marketable.

It actually didn't have anything to do with sexism in this case.

I expected more, but it looks like shes playing it safe

It is because she doesn't know what she is talking about for the most part, or at least not the amount of knowledge and experience required for such a topic.

For example she listed Ellaine from Monkey Island as a damsel when she is exactly the opposite of a damsel and has proven herself extremely competent everytime with the only time she was in danger in the first three games was when Guybrush himself put her in that danger (The forth game puts her to the side because she has to run for office). With Guybrush actually being more of a hinderance to her and that being the major roadblock to their relationship. In another game Ellaine would be the main character, it is sort of the point of her character and the joke is that Guybrush thinks himself the hero but Ellaine doesn't need him and he only serves to mess up her own plans.

There are a lot of good things she could have discussed while being fair (Other M! ohh dear goodness Other M) and showing the disparity between male and female characters even when playing the same roles. For example the difference between male and female damsels.

For example in Kings Quest series one of the Damsels is the character of Edgar a human appearing Fairy who is inlove with the princess Rosella. Inspite needing to be saved, though not actively, he is projected as competent and is active during the events that follow. While Princess Peach, however, while having the same role has a much more passive role whenever she isn't the main character.

The expectation is mostly that a male damsel is still expected to do something in his predicament while the same expectation is not put on female characters.

The exception and derrivative is Princess Zelda who either has no role or who is one of the major manipulators of the game behind the scene, whos shift from passive to more active roles in the games she appears in could be a sign of changing roles of women in videogames with her role only being limited to the fact that Link is the player character, something which videogames can seldom break and do so at their own peril.

[UltraValican]

It was more that they weren't going to do that game PERIOD but as a Starfox game it was suddenly marketable.

It actually didn't have anything to do with sexism in this case.

I kinda touched on that, but its not like Starfox Adventures was going to be a masterpiece to begin with.

It is because she doesn't know what she is talking about for the most part.

The video kinda gives off that vibe of "I don't really have much to say: here's some facts to make it look good". I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, since she is going to make more videos. You're example sounds pretty damning, but I've never played  Monkey island and I don't know much about besides "its a adventure/puzzle/find it game".


Another thing is that most of the examples she used have no real plot or character development. On either side. I doubt you could tell me much about Link as a person. Gannon? Mario? Bowser? This is more of an issue of games of this sort, than the representation of women. The whole "plot" of the games is a flimsy excuse. Bowser has no real reason to kidnap peach, and Mario has no real reason to save her. The only real reason we use people as opposed to objects is because they're people, making the game more compelling.
Compare
You are a lone samurai, some Ninjas stole your watch. That watch is a sacred family heirloom, and if it isn't retrieved the world will be in peril.
or
You are a lone samurai, The evil Lord Emna has kidnapped the Princess in order to summon the evil Empress and bring hell to Earth.

Assuming both of these are Action Adventure games with little actual plot, which would attract more customers? Both are just as flimsy. One just has marketing potential.
I want analysis of games with actual stories/characters.