Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Flying Dice]

Borno: I've been mildly suspicious of you since I read through the thread. I went after Hapah first because he seemed to be the most consistently suspicious, though not much more so than you. (Obviously, Jiokuy isn't posting, or I'd be going after him for a bit just for being such obvscum.)

I didn't voice my suspicions largely because I didn't have them entirely formulated yet. When Supercharazad FoSed you, I went back over your posts and noticed that you were trying to redirect suspicion to Jiokuy, which is a fairly safe move, given that he's both very inactive and rather scummy looking. You also tried to make a scumteam pairing between him and Hapah. Now, when I FoS you, you respond in the exact same way: you get defensive and try to redirect suspicion onto me and try to form a scumteam pairing between Supercharazad and myself. You don't appear to be concerned with scumhunting so much as defending your own skin in any way you can, which reeks of scum a lot stronger than Hapah's posts supporting antitown behavior; the latter is much more likely to be newbie behavior (unsolidified opinions).

Therefore, borno. You aren't trying to scumhunt, you're trying to push people away from suspecting you. No town should be worried about being suspected as scum; what do they have to hide?




Urist: I'm curious. You voted Jiokuy because:

I'm voting Jiokuy because:

-Voting people for scumhunting
-BSing about keeping sides balanced
-Giving up

Now, I can understand the motivation for a policylynch here, and might even have supported it if I didn't see other people acting scummy. At this point, though, Jiokuy is feeling like such an obvscum to me that the only way for him to look more scummy would be a blackmail attempt. In other words, scummy enough that I'm inclined to believe that it could really be someone who just has no idea how to start into this game. Obviously, this wouldn't be a good line of judgment in a game full of veterans, but here, I believe I've got about a 60% shot at being right, just on gut feeling.

You responded to my question

Urist: A question. You're scum, and you see a few townies going at each other while ignoring everyone else, with the end of the day still a decent amount of time away. What do you do?

Fan the flames. Ruthlessly question all of them until the town eventually decides to lynch one.

like that. Now, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable approach for scum to take in that sort of situation (not unlike this one). However, what would a veteran do if they were scum in a BM game and several townies were already going at each other and there was no heat on them at all? One thing that springs to mind would be: sideline, and put a vote on an easy lynch. That way, they can appear to be active by asking occasional questions and FoSing (not unlike what you've been doing since you explained why you were voting Jiokuy), while still staying below the radar. As a bonus, if the easy lynch you voted for goes down and flips town, you don't look particularly scummy, because they looked scummy.

After all, if you are town, why would you just drop a vote and then not put much pressure on anyone beyond posting the occasional single sentence about others' lines of inquiry? Even if you're absolutely convinced that the person you have your vote on is scum, isn't it good to keep getting data on other players? But if you were veteran scum in a BM game, there wouldn't be much risk in sitting back; even if a newbie thinks to question you, what sort of information would they have on you? How easy would it be for you to fool them?

[Jiokuy]

e.g. If I know who the cop is I might be able to bait the Godfather with the cop, then again who knows. Godfathers are unusual.

"Bait" the Godfather? 

Ahh yes, I was referring to a gambit in which a cop tries to oust a godfather by directly contacting players they have confirmed as town, In the hopes that when the cop dies there is a good probability the godfather started it. Course that's a fair bit more useless now, and it relies on the ability to PM other players. It was really just an excerpt of my newbie logic.

In regards to my lack of direct activity I do apologize. It became obvious that I did not know enough about Mafia D1 straegy, so I refrained from posting so that I could study more from the Mafiscum wiki, and other games.

So obolisk what is your opinion on the current situation?

And I am sorry, I am not a very talkative person. I prefer to watch and analyse, sadly there is very little to go on here. I am trying to learn to scumhunt. But it is a bit aquard for me to phrase anything.

On that Note:

I suspect him very heavily right now though, and will continue to do so until he's answered the questions to my satisfaction.

You entered on P8 did you not? I was going to question your vagueness, but you asked some very good questions. They should be anwsered.
Unvote

And I'm drawing a blank, I have very little reason to suspect anyone so far, and I know any of my attempts at pressure will backfire.

[Urist Imiknorris]

My main contention with Jiokuy at the moment is that he hasn't actually contributed at all since resigning himself to the noose. I don't know if he's taking advantage of Hapah and borno to lay low or just stopped paying attention to the game (in which case Mod: Prod Jiokuy?), but either way he needs to get in here and take part in the discussion. Once he's done that I'll reconsider my vote.

However, what would a veteran do if they were scum in a BM game and several townies were already going at each other and there was no heat on them at all? One thing that springs to mind would be: sideline, and put a vote on an easy lynch. That way, they can appear to be active by asking occasional questions and FoSing (not unlike what you've been doing since you explained why you were voting Jiokuy), while still staying below the radar. As a bonus, if the easy lynch you voted for goes down and flips town, you don't look particularly scummy, because they looked scummy.

The problem with that is that Jiokuy isn't an easy lynch with Hapah and borno acting as they are.

After all, if you are town, why would you just drop a vote and then not put much pressure on anyone beyond posting the occasional single sentence about others' lines of inquiry?

I will admit I haven't been giving this game (or either of my other ones really) the effort that I should. I blame pokecapn & co.

Even if you're absolutely convinced that the person you have your vote on is scum, isn't it good to keep getting data on other players?

Indeed.

But if you were veteran scum in a BM game, there wouldn't be much risk in sitting back; even if a newbie thinks to question you, what sort of information would they have on you? How easy would it be for you to fool them?

No idea. I don't exactly trust my ability to lie.

PPE: Speak of the devil.

And I'm drawing a blank, I have very little reason to suspect anyone so far

Nobody?

and I know any of my attempts at pressure will backfire.

What makes you think that? Try anyway. Doing nothing guarantees failure.

However, you're trying. Unvote.

borno: See my previous question to you.

Townies are more open to the idea that they are being attacked by misguided townies - after all, if you're not 100% sure who the scum are yourself, why should you expect anyone else to not make mistakes? However, scum, out of a desire to stay alive, are more inclined to try to get attention away from themselves. This tends to manifest as either deflecting questions (Why are you attacking me for that? <that player> did it too!) or OMGUSing (I'm not scum, you are!). You are doing the latter to everyone who attacks you, borno. Why?

[Flying Dice]

Urist: That's reasonable enough. I had figured it was more due to inactivity, but I wanted to see what you would say about it.



Jiokuy: Unless you're scum, you don't need to worry about screwing up your scumhunting and looking scummy. If you're town, you don't have any reason to worry about appearing scummy apart from the chance for a mislynch, which is drastically less important than finding scum (or at this point, just helping to dig up information). The more reluctant you are to participate, the more suspicious you look (to me, at least; I can't claim to speak for any other townies).

[Hapah]

I'm glad to see a lot more activity since Jim grabbed the reins!

Jiokuy: I'm not an IC (and see below, I've got some habits to break as well), but the best way to improve is to play. Even if you make mistakes (hell, look at me, I'd say at least half the damage done to me is self-inflicted), it's still better to take a shot at it. Never give up, and don't be afraid to get your hands dirty, if that's what it takes to shake loose a lead.

Flying Dice: I'd like to add some context to that bolded phase (in your last post that was pointed at me) that I should have put in from the beginning. This is only my 2nd forum Mafia. I've played plenty of Mafia, but it was the SC2 custom-map interpretation, and from what I'm now seeing it's a totally different beast. The days are much, much shorter, and the day phase plus trial is usually somewhere around the 2-minute mark. Typical game size is 14-15 players. It is VERY easy for legitimate information to get lost or a person's motives misinterpreted when 15 people are all trying to speak their piece in such a small amount of time. I've seen players that are confirmed, beyond-all-doubt Town get lynched simply because the proof gets washed away in the wall of text. Bandwagons are almost a necessity early on (it takes 51% plus to put someone on trial most games), and someone lashing out can more often than not be manipulated into lynching a townie. I will say that this (likely) does not apply in forum Mafia. I see now that this is (obviously) a much slower game type, and that here someone spitting out tons of information is not a detriment to the town.

I was wrong. You can read this as me trying to backtrack, or you can read it as a clarification, but how you choose to interpret it is your choice. I have much left to learn, ESPECIALLY when it comes to reading between the lines (I took a shot at borno and caught a lot of flak for my trouble). I'll make mistakes, it's practically a given. But that is how I will learn.

borno: I haven't gotten a chance to re-read the entire thread as of yet, but Urist and Super do seem to have a point. And concerning Jiokuy: You've got to agree that his comments looks like more of a newbtell than a scumtell, given his actions and recent posts. I'm not saying that being a noob is a free pass, but you do have to examine a noob's posts in a little different light. (No offense meant, Jiokuy. We all start somewhere.)

I'll try to fit in a good re-read tonight and see what comes up.

PPE: Well said, Flying Dice. (Do I shorten that to Flying or Dice?)

[Flying Dice]

Hapah, I read it as the latter. I said from the very start that I was not entirely sure if it was you being scummish or you not being used to the normal line of thought here. Not to say that I no longer suspect you (or anyone else who isn't me), but you've given context and an explanation, which was the main thing I was after.

At the moment, all of the Mafia I've seen has been reading games played by vets, so I'm having to consciously direct my paranoia because there are going to be newbtells here.

((People usually use Dice, but it doesn't really matter either way.))

[Flying Dice]

Just realized I missed something important...

Unvote, vote borno. 

[borno]

borno, why do you suspect everyone who attacks you?

I suspect people who, to me, either haven't posted their reasons for attacking me, or if I find one of their reasons for attacking me faulty.

Borno: I've been mildly suspicious of you since I read through the thread. I went after Hapah first because he seemed to be the most consistently suspicious, though not much more so than you. (Obviously, Jiokuy isn't posting, or I'd be going after him for a bit just for being such obvscum.)

I didn't voice my suspicions largely because I didn't have them entirely formulated yet. When Supercharazad FoSed you, I went back over your posts and noticed that you were trying to redirect suspicion to Jiokuy, which is a fairly safe move, given that he's both very inactive and rather scummy looking. You also tried to make a scumteam pairing between him and Hapah. Now, when I FoS you, you respond in the exact same way: you get defensive and try to redirect suspicion onto me and try to form a scumteam pairing between Supercharazad and myself. You don't appear to be concerned with scumhunting so much as defending your own skin in any way you can, which reeks of scum a lot stronger than Hapah's posts supporting antitown behavior; the latter is much more likely to be newbie behavior (unsolidified opinions).

Therefore, borno. You aren't trying to scumhunt, you're trying to push people away from suspecting you. No town should be worried about being suspected as scum; what do they have to hide?

You have to keep in mind that it is still D1, and I'm trying to introduce the ideas of who is scum and who is scumteam. This is my second (The first one I came in when the game was already finished) mafia, and I still haven't really grasped the concept of being town yet (I was scum in the last one). I admit; I'm trying to not be lynched, but I still don't know how a normal town acts like.

borno: I haven't gotten a chance to re-read the entire thread as of yet, but Urist and Super do seem to have a point. And concerning Jiokuy: You've got to agree that his comments looks like more of a newbtell than a scumtell, given his actions and recent posts. I'm not saying that being a noob is a free pass, but you do have to examine a noob's posts in a little different light. (No offense meant, Jiokuy. We all start somewhere.)

Yes, I guess I have to. (And it's called being a newb, not a noob.)

[borno]

EBWOP: Extend.

[Flying Dice]

Borno: I've been mildly suspicious of you since I read through the thread. I went after Hapah first because he seemed to be the most consistently suspicious, though not much more so than you. (Obviously, Jiokuy isn't posting, or I'd be going after him for a bit just for being such obvscum.)

I didn't voice my suspicions largely because I didn't have them entirely formulated yet. When Supercharazad FoSed you, I went back over your posts and noticed that you were trying to redirect suspicion to Jiokuy, which is a fairly safe move, given that he's both very inactive and rather scummy looking. You also tried to make a scumteam pairing between him and Hapah. Now, when I FoS you, you respond in the exact same way: you get defensive and try to redirect suspicion onto me and try to form a scumteam pairing between Supercharazad and myself. You don't appear to be concerned with scumhunting so much as defending your own skin in any way you can, which reeks of scum a lot stronger than Hapah's posts supporting antitown behavior; the latter is much more likely to be newbie behavior (unsolidified opinions).

Therefore, borno. You aren't trying to scumhunt, you're trying to push people away from suspecting you. No town should be worried about being suspected as scum; what do they have to hide?

You have to keep in mind that it is still D1, and I'm trying to introduce the ideas of who is scum and who is scumteam. This is my second (The first one I came in when the game was already finished) mafia, and I still haven't really grasped the concept of being town yet (I was scum in the last one). I admit; I'm trying to not be lynched, but I still don't know how a normal town acts like.

If you were scum in the last one, you should probably have a better idea of what townies are going to act like, because you were able to view a whole game knowing exactly who was town. Even if most of them were newbies, that'll still give you some idea.

I suspect people who, to me, either haven't posted their reasons for attacking me, or if I find one of their reasons for attacking me faulty.

The problem is that every time someone has voted for you, you instantly became suspicious of them. It is fairly basic town logic that a vote or FoS is below the concern of a townie; after all, they aren't scum, and don't need to worry about being found out. Town putting pressure on other players is one of the most basic aspects of gameplay, basic enough that you probably should have picked up on it, either from IC comments, watching other players play, or reading through old games.

You have given fairly poor reasons for why you responded like that multiple times, but that isn't the main thing. The main thing is that your last two votes and your last FoS (in other words, all the votes and FoS you've cast since the end of RVS) have been directed at people who pressured you, just after they did so. That doesn't say "confused newtown trying to scumhunt" to me, it says "newscum not comfortable with taking heat". You have yet to do any scumhunting or questioning of people (outside of RVS) who haven't voted you, and when you do so, you appear to be more concerned with deflecting suspicion onto other people. If you think people look scummy, why are you telling the people pressuring you "oh, they look more scummy than I do, hint hint" instead of going after them yourself?

Incidentally, I agree. This is still D1, and we don't have too much to go by apart from reactions and little things. We'll have much more information after the first lynch and NK, once we can see those flips and start looking for patterns.

Unless anyone has any further lines of inquiry that they think are worth an extension, Veto Extension.
__
Unofficial Votecount: Lemme know if I missed something. Just for reference.
[5] borno: Hapah, Jiokuy, Supercharazad, Flying Dice, Urist Imiknorris
[3] Hapah: obolisk0430, Shakerag, borno

NV: Dr. Phibes (or his replacement)

[Supercharazad]

Borno: You didn't answer my questions or give more reasons like I asked.


Right now, I'm fairly certain Borno is scum. He's not answering half the questions directed at him and seems a hell of a lot more concerned with not getting lynched rather than getting the scum lynched.

[Jiokuy]

@Dice A Myslynch is bad for town. If I indirectly-lynch myself without providing sufficient information (e.g. scumhunting well) I have done the town a disservice.
PS: I unvoted
PPS: I'll post more when I am home

[obolisk0430]

So obolisk what is your opinion on the current situation?

Too lazy to make your own?

Also, I'm sitting here reading everything that just happend.  I'll re-read it in a sec, but right now, I'm seeing just one single thing.  Massive bandwagoning.  Shortly after I started grinding Hapah, a ton of people suddenly started voting him.  Then I see this:

Supercharazad shoots an FOS at borno for being defensive and voting Hapah.
Flying dice comes up from his last post in which he was pressuring Hapah, and suddenly goes "Herp derp, supercharazad makes a good point, borno is probably scum"
Borno throws an FOS at flying dice for being a wishywasy bandwagoning scumbucket
Urist comes in and nailes borno for suspecting everyone who pressures/votes him
Then suddenly, votes on borno.

This is bullshit.  I'm reading borno's vote on Hapah, and it looks completely legit to me.  In fact, it's the damn reason I'm voting Hapah in the first place.  Because Hapah doesn't care about having a good reason for voting borno, he just wants to vote him.
As was said, flying dice is a wishywashy scumbucket.
Urist is also just shooting off bullshit.  Borno has completely good reasons for acting suspicious of the people voting him: those people have no good reasons what so ever.
The hell are you guys doing?

[Supercharazad]

I like how you're defending Borno while reusing his bullshit arguments.
We all have plenty of good reasons for voting Borno, and your defense of him basically means that if he's scum, you're next to go on the lynching block.

[Shakerag]

[ohai everyone.  Busy day yesterday, so I've some catching up to do.  Very glad to see so much activity, even if it means more for me to look over!]

By line:
-Yes. It's Day 1, anyone who says their reasoning isn't weak is deluding themselves. If someone had a rock-solid case we wouldn't have a split vote, we'd have someone on the end of a rope.
-I'm saying that scum normally have their shit together more than that. Even in a beginner's name, I wouldn't expect a scum to manage to cram his foot so far down his own throat.
-I am. I'm not exactly fresh off the bus, and I understand the value of a D1 lynch in a vanilla game like this, but I'm not going to make the townie's best decisions for them. If it managed to go through the entire weekend, all of Monday, and most of today (until you broke the tie) without anyone stepping up to the plate, then I'll let it ride.
-I don't see how soliciting opinions is scummy at all. I thought I saw a scumtell, and I wanted to see if anyone else saw what I saw.

Okay, I'll respond likewise:
-Yes, granted, there's usually going to be less to go on D1 as opposed to later in the game.  However, calling your reasoning "weak" sends off the vibe of "I'm scum and can't get anything better but I *really* want to lynch this person" to me at least.  [Also, think about what happens if that person gets lynched and the other players look at why you voted them.  If they flip scum, people may be inclined to think you got lucky and are a poor scumhunter.  If they flip town, they may think the previous at best, or think you're scum at worst.]
-Again, don't assume competency level of the scumteam.  You will be surprised at how good/bad both town and scum can be.  [To me, arguments about competence only really work when you know a particular player's playstyle well.  i.e. if someone is a known strong player and they do something seemingly really dumb ...]
-So step up to the plate yourself?  If you want whomever you're voting for lynched, then keep building a case against them so that everyone else looks at it and goes "gee, Hapah's got a point, that person really *is* scummy!" and votes who you are voting. 
-If your argument is strong, others will notice it on thier own.  If you feel you have to call attention to it, then you're either a) doing it wrong, or b) scum trying to show off how town you look.

C.) Your last four (four!) posts have been attacking me. I admire your dedication, really, but you haven't so much as glanced at anyone else since last Friday. I answered your questions as best I could; if you're not happy with the responses, that's fine. But following up every one of my posts with an attack on me seems a bit excessive.

[Generally speaking, tunneling in and of itself isn't a scumtell.]


Jim:  What happened to Scelly9 and zomara0292 in the replace queue?  And doesn't Dr. Phibes still need a replacement?


[Gurgh.  Lots of posts.  I'm just going to respond to points as I go and quote only if I need to.]

[Hapah@123: Typically RVS votes don't have much "weight" behind them, but when it's clear that the voting is switching from RVS to "pressure" or "lynch" people tend to react to that more.]

[borno@125: Caution yourself against trying to pick out the scumteam early, especially before scum has flipped, and extra especially on D1.  It's almost always a bad idea.]

[Hapah@127: I was more referring to alternatives to RVS altogether if I recall correctly.  Like starting of D1 with a massclaim in a role-heavy game, or some manner of insane gambit (like doing something blatently scummy and peg whoever tries to go for the easy lynch as scum).  Neither has generally worked terribly well, so we stick with RVS.]

Supercharazad@130: Here's a little mental exercise.  Put yourself in borno's position.  Would you act the same way borno is if you were town?  If you were scum?  [This is a good thing to do in general, by the way.]


Flying Dice@131: Can you clarify what makes you feel that borno is "redirecting suspicion onto Jiokuy"?


[Jiokuy@136:  That's a fair amount of time away "studying".  I hope to see you applying your newfound knowledge.  Additionally, I'm more of a "sit back and analyze" player myself, but you have to break out of that somewhat in these kinds of games.  Also, try not to refer to page numbers, as not all of us show the same number of posts per thread.  To me, we're only on page three.  There's been a lot said, especially lately.  You have more than enough to work with in front of you.  Finally, be bold!  You're here to learn, so try and pressure anyway.  The ICs will critique and correct if necessary.]


Hapah@139:  Hum.  Well, that explains some things.  unvote while I re-evaluate everything going on here.


Supercharazad: Another mental exercise:  What if borno flips town?  What will your thoughts be then?