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[Hapah]

Bookthras: Solid reasoning on all points. I'll be the first to admit that the style I'm used to (SC2 Mafia, where I started) is vastly different than it is in the forums (this is my first forum game, actually). In SC2, Day Phase is usually around a minute and a half, with a 30-second or so trial where the accused can defend themselves, and everyone is packing a power of some sort. Trying to glean any sort of useful information from two minutes worth of random bullshit (and trust me, they'll act like damn fools) is next to impossible; as a result D1 lynches are almost unheard of. The real discussions usually begin D2.

Regardless, you made some good points on the matter! I still can't get behind the D1 lynch always being a good move, but I might change my tune after some reflection. You definitely need to apply pressure to a person or persons to see how various people react, but I don't think it's a calamity if no-one ends up on the end of a rope. I'm not trying to sound indecisive, but it is a little different ballgame here and I'm still learning the nuances.

On the teams: I see your point. I'll agree that there is PROBABLY more than just Tiruin's scumbuddy out there, but only Toaster (and any other 3rd parties/scum, I guess) would know that. We can make educated guesses, but I wouldn't get too tied up in them.

Finally, the situation Native describes is the sort where I have mixed opinions on the D1 lynch: Everyone jumped on the train to crazy-town, and I can't say that I think his attempt to pull Daruish back from the edge was a bad idea.

Urist: Jack is looking suspicious, if only because he hasn't posted his actions or gotten involved in the discussion. He's around the forums: He posted while I was writing this up. At the moment, I'd say Jack and Native (but I haven't had a chance to really dig in Native's responses). Bookthras is a big question mark to me, because Darvi went MIA I don't have much information to go on. I don't like that it feels like something is going on between you and Jack, but it might not be anything.

Note: I can neither confirm nor deny that Native used that Hallucination scroll on Flandre (me) N1, but it smells genuine to me. Doesn't mean he's town, doesn't mean he's scum, but I think he's being honest on that point, at least.

Native: What made you choose Flandre for a target N1?

[Jack A T]

My action last night: tracking NativeForeigner with a staff of tracking, as he is one of the two reasonable possibilities for scumteam membership from my perspective, and the only active one.  NativeForeigner didn't go anywhere.

Jack AT: Mr.D was a brother to you, wanted you to win, so claimed and flipped, but you didn't even raise an eyebrow about it. Are you a brother as well? There's been quite a few claims, but I don't think I've seen one from you. Please state in full your class, alignment and win condition.

Bookthras: ...what.  There was no reason whatsoever for me to believe that Mr. D was my brother, beyond his vague "someone who is voting me is my brother" statement (note that he didn't claim to be my brother), until his flip.  I didn't raise an eyebrow before the flip because I wasn't on at that time.  I didn't raise an eyebrow about it after the flip because...

Urist I is correct.  The wincon of the Brother is that the Brother wins if the player they are paired to wins.  The Brother is not told the alignment/wincon of the target.

...it meant nothing, and all the relevant questions leading to it meaning nothing had been asked by the time I got to the thread.  And this...how does it indicate that I'm a Brother?  At all?  If that's not what indicates that I'm a Brother, what exactly does?

In fact, how does any of that warrant even a FoS?  This feels oddly flimsy, especially for this late in the game and from a veteran.

To answer your questions:
*While it would be amusing to have a Brother trying to make a Brother win, I am not a Brother.
*You have an interesting definition of "quite a few".  I count a total two claims that aren't "I did this action" claims (That is, claims that aren't of the sort I've made): Imiknorris claiming ranger and Mr. D claiming brother.  I may have missed something, but that's all I found.  For the actual answer...I am town, I "when" (nice, Toaster) when all town-opposing killing and converting roles are dealt with. (I'd word it exactly like it was worded in the PM, but that would be against the rules.)  I am a paladin via random class selection.

Finally, what are your thoughts on Hapah and Shakerag?  You're speaking as if you think they could be third parties, but you don't actually seem to be examining that possibility.  You're strongly pushing the conversation towards thoughts on Imiknorris and I, while your reasoning for your FoS on me is poor at best.

Boothras: First night, I used my scroll of hallucination on Falndre. Second night, I used the scroll of treasure detection (you can see why that's not worth claiming). This night, I used my scroll of ninja looting.

NativeForeigner: Why did you do each of these actions?

Okay.  NativeForeigner has played consistently poorly throughout this game, giving little to no reasoning for any vote.  He hasn't really questioned anyone until today.  His votes, and I feel this must be mentioned again, have lacked reasoning.  He also may have been blocked last night, and definitely didn't go anywhere, a possible reason for the lack of kill or successful protection.

On the other hand, Zathras's play feels off, in the ways I am questioning him about above.  In addition, a block is a very good action for scum who decided to not kill: it explains the lack of kill and leaves the target of the block in a bad, rather lynchable position.  This is not evidence against Zathras, but rather an explanation for why there wouldn't be a kill if he's scum.

For now, NativeForeigner gets my vote.  This vote is rather likely to move, though, depending on answers.

PPE: Hapah, I generally take quite a while to write up my posts.  Several hours per post, in fact.   Usually, there is much pacing involved.

Urist: Jack is looking suspicious, if only because he hasn't posted his actions or gotten involved in the discussion. He's around the forums: He posted while I was writing this up.

(Formatting added by me)

BULLSHIT.  My last post on the entire forum was in this very game, during the previous day.

[Bookthras]

Native:

This night, I used my scroll of ninja looting. Nothing I've done at night is really worth noting in my opinion.
PPE: Do you know if items used are still burned if I'm blocked? Because I did use the scroll of ninja looting despite your claim of blocking me.

So, your claim is that you actually used an item that would make you appear as scum to inspections. Of course, it is perfectly consistent with you actually being blocked and also being scum, yes? How convenient! And how unverifiable! Lovely.

Outside your interactions with Tiruin, on D1 you had that spat with GG [1], (which, without being actual evidence, dovetails nicely with scum's decision to off him), after which you proposed the single most anti-town move on D1: a no-lynch.

If it's not really evidence, then why are you trying to bring it up? There's little to be gained from speculating on a NK. See above for my thoughts on a no-lynch+extend being an anti-town move when everyone's temporarily being an idiot.

I bring it up because I found it amusing and interesting, but it's not actual evidence of you being Tiruin's buddy. I did say that explicitly, didn't I? I found it interesting, is all. Funny how you react to it, though.

Regarding your "no-lynch+extend", I think it's bunk, since an "argument+extend" would have accomplished the same thing without risking a no-lynch.

In my opinion, a mislynch when town is being stupid only hurts. No information is gained beyond "Hm, maybe we shouldn't have lynched over a minor fucking grammar mistake."

Then you should have hunted for other scum and lynched them instead. "Argument+extend",
"Scumhunt+extend", are all superior to advocating for a no-lynch, and you know it. But no, you didn't advocate to lynch someone scummier. You advocated to lynch no one. You are merely trying to justify yourself after the fact.

And I know this is wine, but why would I go after Tiruin first (after Imiknorris made his first post)?

Using your own words against you: If you know it's wine, then why are you trying to bring it up? There's little to be gained from speculating on wine. But I'll tell you why anyway: you were ready to bus him then if necessary, and voting him gave you plausible deniability; had he defended himself successfully or a wagon formed on Imiknorris, it would have been trivial for you to squeeze the mislynch before the bus. Since it didn't, it was better for distance and setup for the D3 bus to vote him for the entire day.

Again, did I really need any pressure or questions?

If you were town, yes. If you were bussing your buddy, not really. Note how others did manage to apply pressure and ask questions, and basically hanged him without your help.


PPE: Answers to Hapah and Jack shortly. Glad to see good activity!

[Urist Imiknorris]

Action claims:

UI: Protect Native
Hapah: Protect Shakerag
Bookthras: Mess with Native
Native: Ninja loot
Shakerag: Assist UI
Jack: Track Native

Hmmm... Ninja looter scroll would explain any scum inspection results on Native while also explaining his lack of action. I'd be willing to bet that Native got blocked while trying to mafiakill and didn't want to admit it. Yep. Voting Native.

PPE: Aagh, ninja book.

[Urist Imiknorris]

EBWOP: Hapah, what did you/Flandre do N1?

[Hapah]

Urist: Flandre took no action. I imagine (s)he got replaced exactly because (s)he went MIA, so it didn't seem odd to me.

Jack: All I know is that while I was writing the post, I clicked your name in the thread and it said your last activity was 10:30-something, when the time was 10:35. I don't know what you've been up to, but I took that information at face value.

[Hapah]

D-D-D-DOUBLEPOSTpostpost.

Note: I mean to include this in my answer the Urist. The reason I can't confirm or deny NF's N1 action is because I took no action, and since I took no action I wouldn't be notified if I was blocked.

[Jack A T]

Jack: All I know is that while I was writing the post, I clicked your name in the thread and it said your last activity was 10:30-something, when the time was 10:35. I don't know what you've been up to, but I took that information at face value.

Last activity is the last time a user was online.  It's completely and utterly meaningless if the user happens to be online at the time.  To find out the last time a player posted, go to their profile, and click on the Show Posts button on the sidebar on the left.

[Hapah]

Jack: Thanks for the information!

[NativeForeigner]

Native: What made you choose Flandre for a target N1?

I was on the edge about Flandre. I was doubting townhood, but I wasn't sure if it was just poor town play or scumplay, so I used the scroll of hallucination more for the block that for the protect.

My action last night: tracking NativeForeigner with a staff of tracking, as he is one of the two reasonable possibilities for scumteam membership from my perspective, and the only active one.  NativeForeigner didn't go anywhere.

Regardless of my alignment, that doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure ninja looter wouldn't take me anywhere (not 100% sure, though) and I was supposedly blocked. Sadly, this confirms nothing.

Boothras: First night, I used my scroll of hallucination on Falndre. Second night, I used the scroll of treasure detection (you can see why that's not worth claiming). This night, I used my scroll of ninja looting.

NativeForeigner: Why did you do each of these actions?

See above for N1, for N2, I only had the scroll of ninja looting and the scroll of treasure detection. I was more interested in finding out what was in the pool than looting a corpse, so I used that. This last night I had the scroll of shapeshift and the ninja looting scroll. The scroll of shapeshift isn't much use to me, so I took a risk and used ninja looting. Someone stole the scroll of shapeshift last night.

So, your claim is that you actually used an item that would make you appear as scum to inspections. Of course, it is perfectly consistent with you actually being blocked and also being scum, yes? How convenient! And how unverifiable! Lovely.
[/quote

1) Did I even get inspected? 2) Your block also can't be verified, now can it? Who's to say that you chose not to kill and then claim you blocked me to make me look bad?

I bring it up because I found it amusing and interesting, but it's not actual evidence of you being Tiruin's buddy. I did say that explicitly, didn't I? I found it interesting, is all. Funny how you react to it, though.

Regarding your "no-lynch+extend", I think it's bunk, since an "argument+extend" would have accomplished the same thing without risking a no-lynch.

*

Then you should have hunted for other scum and lynched them instead. "Argument+extend",
"Scumhunt+extend", are all superior to advocating for a no-lynch, and you know it. But no, you didn't advocate to lynch someone scummier. You advocated to lynch no one. You are merely trying to justify yourself after the fact.
[/quote

I'm just saying, if you don't feel it's evidence, then why even bring it up? It supposedly does nothing to further your case. Seems like you're just covering your ass so no one can call on you for bringing forth bad evidence.

I did provide an argument. Essentially, it was an argument+no-lynch+extend. I threw the no-lynch in there thinking that not enough people would extend but enough might vote for the no-lynch. If people had extended, I would have withdrawn my no-lynch vote, but as it stood, a no-lynch was far superior to lynching someone for a grammar error. I couldn't advocate lynching someone scummier because everyone was too focused on Dariush's grammar to do anything useful. The only hope to get eveyrone on track was either a no-lynch or an extend.

If you were town, yes. If you were bussing your buddy, not really. Note how others did manage to apply pressure and ask questions, and basically hanged him without your help.

Tell me, what new thing could I have brought to the table that would effectively pressured someone who is almost guaranteed to be scum? He had no effective way of defending himself and nearly everyone already had him pegged. He was already backed into a wall, I wouldn't have been able to push him any further.

Hmmm... Ninja looter scroll would explain any scum inspection results on Native while also explaining his lack of action. I'd be willing to bet that Native got blocked while trying to mafiakill and didn't want to admit it. Yep. Voting Native.

PPE: Aagh, ninja book.

Why risk it and claim ninja-looter without knowing if anyone even inspected me? I could have claimed any other number of actions to explain the lack of action. What makes you think I did the mafiakill and just got blocked instead of one of the protected people being targeted or Book being scum lying about the block and just !none'd?

[NativeForeigner]

Spoiler: Fixed (click to show/hide)

Native: What made you choose Flandre for a target N1?

I was on the edge about Flandre. I was doubting townhood, but I wasn't sure if it was just poor town play or scumplay, so I used the scroll of hallucination more for the block that for the protect.

My action last night: tracking NativeForeigner with a staff of tracking, as he is one of the two reasonable possibilities for scumteam membership from my perspective, and the only active one.  NativeForeigner didn't go anywhere.

Regardless of my alignment, that doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure ninja looter wouldn't take me anywhere (not 100% sure, though) and I was supposedly blocked. Sadly, this confirms nothing.

Boothras: First night, I used my scroll of hallucination on Falndre. Second night, I used the scroll of treasure detection (you can see why that's not worth claiming). This night, I used my scroll of ninja looting.

NativeForeigner: Why did you do each of these actions?

See above for N1, for N2, I only had the scroll of ninja looting and the scroll of treasure detection. I was more interested in finding out what was in the pool than looting a corpse, so I used that. This last night I had the scroll of shapeshift and the ninja looting scroll. The scroll of shapeshift isn't much use to me, so I took a risk and used ninja looting. Someone stole the scroll of shapeshift last night.

So, your claim is that you actually used an item that would make you appear as scum to inspections. Of course, it is perfectly consistent with you actually being blocked and also being scum, yes? How convenient! And how unverifiable! Lovely.

1) Did I even get inspected? 2) Your block also can't be verified, now can it? Who's to say that you chose not to kill and then claim you blocked me to make me look bad?

I bring it up because I found it amusing and interesting, but it's not actual evidence of you being Tiruin's buddy. I did say that explicitly, didn't I? I found it interesting, is all. Funny how you react to it, though.

Regarding your "no-lynch+extend", I think it's bunk, since an "argument+extend" would have accomplished the same thing without risking a no-lynch.

*

Then you should have hunted for other scum and lynched them instead. "Argument+extend",
"Scumhunt+extend", are all superior to advocating for a no-lynch, and you know it. But no, you didn't advocate to lynch someone scummier. You advocated to lynch no one. You are merely trying to justify yourself after the fact.

I'm just saying, if you don't feel it's evidence, then why even bring it up? It supposedly does nothing to further your case. Seems like you're just covering your ass so no one can call on you for bringing forth bad evidence.

I did provide an argument. Essentially, it was an argument+no-lynch+extend. I threw the no-lynch in there thinking that not enough people would extend but enough might vote for the no-lynch. If people had extended, I would have withdrawn my no-lynch vote, but as it stood, a no-lynch was far superior to lynching someone for a grammar error. I couldn't advocate lynching someone scummier because everyone was too focused on Dariush's grammar to do anything useful. The only hope to get eveyrone on track was either a no-lynch or an extend.

If you were town, yes. If you were bussing your buddy, not really. Note how others did manage to apply pressure and ask questions, and basically hanged him without your help.

Tell me, what new thing could I have brought to the table that would effectively pressured someone who is almost guaranteed to be scum? He had no effective way of defending himself and nearly everyone already had him pegged. He was already backed into a wall, I wouldn't have been able to push him any further.

Hmmm... Ninja looter scroll would explain any scum inspection results on Native while also explaining his lack of action. I'd be willing to bet that Native got blocked while trying to mafiakill and didn't want to admit it. Yep. Voting Native.

PPE: Aagh, ninja book.

Why risk it and claim ninja-looter without knowing if anyone even inspected me? I could have claimed any other number of actions to explain the lack of action. What makes you think I did the mafiakill and just got blocked instead of one of the protected people being targeted or Book being scum lying about the block and just !none'd?

[Hapah]

Native: Neither of the alleged protected people are claiming that the protection triggered. I can't see any reason for them to not claim the protection, if it triggered, so as I see it this means one of two things:

1.) The scum gunman got roleblocked.
2.) The scum elected not to kill anyone last night.

I'll think about this during the day.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I was on the edge about Flandre. I was doubting townhood, but I wasn't sure if it was just poor town play or scumplay, so I used the scroll of hallucination more for the block that for the protect.

What block?

1) Did I even get inspected? 2) Your block also can't be verified, now can it? Who's to say that you chose not to kill and then claim you blocked me to make me look bad?

OMGUSOMGUSOMGUSetc.

Why risk it and claim ninja-looter without knowing if anyone even inspected me? I could have claimed any other number of actions to explain the lack of action. What makes you think I did the mafiakill and just got blocked instead of one of the protected people being targeted or Book being scum lying about the block and just !none'd?

Hmmm...

a) Protected targets are aware of failed kills
b) The nightkill is scum's strongest asset. Why waste it for a single mislynch?
c) Why assume he none'd instead of doing anything else? Presumably he'd have an item or two to use.

[NativeForeigner]

I was on the edge about Flandre. I was doubting townhood, but I wasn't sure if it was just poor town play or scumplay, so I used the scroll of hallucination more for the block that for the protect.

What block?

Book claims to have blocked me.

1) Did I even get inspected? 2) Your block also can't be verified, now can it? Who's to say that you chose not to kill and then claim you blocked me to make me look bad?

OMGUSOMGUSOMGUSetc.
[/quote]

Right... an OMGUS without a vote and while pointing out why saying how the exact same thing could be said about him.

Hmmm...

a) Protected targets are aware of failed kills
b) The nightkill is scum's strongest asset. Why waste it for a single mislynch?
c) Why assume he none'd instead of doing anything else? Presumably he'd have an item or two to use.

a) Yar, I overlooked that. Which means either Book is lying or something else is going down.
b) Why not? Crazier things have been done.
c) I was under the impression that you could use an item and still perform your night action if you had one. Seems like I might have been mistaken about that.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I was on the edge about Flandre. I was doubting townhood, but I wasn't sure if it was just poor town play or scumplay, so I used the scroll of hallucination more for the block that for the protect.

What block?

Book claims to have blocked me.

SCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUM

You can't even get your blocks straight. I'm talking about blocking Flandre N1.