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[scriver]

Maybe "1st world" Europe is different, though.

Did you just imply Europe is not "first world" because we don't pay our doctors as much?

[Reelya]

There's one problem with saying "$300,000 in school fees is no problem, because you earn money after that pretty easily". The key term is that you earn the money after, not before. Which means anyone who cannot access $300,000 is denied the education regardless of talent. Thus ensuring only a select few with money can access the education, keeping doctors relatively scarce, but also reducing competitiveness (it's basically Affimative Action, but favoring rich people).

It's basically like Affirmative Action, but favoring rich people. Only the wealthy can access the courses, keeping numbers down, fees high, and making doctors face less competition after graduation, which keeps medical prices high. That's because an arbitrary screening process (how rich you are) distorts competition based on pure talent.

Where exactly does one get that money without low-interest student loans provided as a public service. Private banks tend to not want to give that sort of huge loan unless you're buying some sort of property which can be repossessed if you fail payments. Classes cannot be repossessed, and if you "drop out" or fail to find a job, you declare bankruptcy and the bank loses out.

Saying medical students should just work their own way through college to pay for fees, books and living expenses, also reduces the amount of time they have to study. With doctors in training, this isn't just something that affects themselves, it's potentially lives at risk.

[Reelya]

Europe's a rat-infested communist hovel, clearly implied.

[KaelGotDwarves]

It's funny because as I posted earlier in the thread, Europe has the top countries ranked by the World Health Organisation in health care.

And they're all '' socialist''.

EDIT: yes I'm quoting myself from the other thread. Deal with it.
 

Pretty sure greatjustice is a troll. He never did respond to all my facts on socialism in Singapore (since I was there) and how WHO rated a bunch of socialist countries with best health care in the world.

When presented with facts he either runs or threadshits a bunch of irrelevant or false information.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Maybe "1st world" Europe is different, though.

Did you just imply Europe is not "first world" because we don't pay our doctors as much?

The three worlds theory isn't even vaild anymore. With the fall of the Soviet Union everywhere in the world is by definition First or Third World.

[RedKing]

It's not even valid across a single country. The United States is First *and* Third World, depending on which part you're talking about.

[scriver]

It's funny because as I posted earlier in the thread, Europe has the top countries ranked by the World Health Organisation in health care.

And they're all '' socialist''.

EDIT: yes I'm quoting myself from the other thread. Deal with it.
 

Pretty sure greatjustice is a troll. He never did respond to all my facts on socialism in Singapore (since I was there) and how WHO rated a bunch of socialist countries with best health care in the world.

When presented with facts he either runs or threadshits a bunch of irrelevant or false information.

Good to see you a bit more active again, by the way. Are you gonna stay around for a while, or is it just the Thai rain period making you bored?

Disclaimer: I have no idea when in the year the rain season actually is.

The three worlds theory isn't even vaild anymore. With the fall of the Soviet Union everywhere in the world is by definition First or Third World.

The expression is still valid in use, though, as it as evolved to mean "industrialised vs unadvanced", or "rich vs poor", or "modern vs backwater". Or any other such unfairly generalized concepts, but you know what I mean.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I know, it just irks me because I'm obsessed with political science and like to argue with people over trivial things.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Good to see you a bit more active again, by the way. Are you gonna stay around for a while, or is it just the Thai rain period making you bored?

Disclaimer: I have no idea when in the year the rain season actually is.

It is the rainy season, and has been thunderstorming every day. I'm spending time with relatives and have a bit of downtime. I noticed that even though I was pretty active in vector's thread, I never really posted in this one. So here I am.

[Reelya]

WTH? Some Florida cities drug testing employees for nicotine now - by law.

http://politics.slashdot.org/story/12/10/06/1334240/hiring-smokers-banned-in-south-florida-city

Hiring Smokers Banned In South Florida City
"On October 2, City Commissioners of Delray Beach finalized a policy which prohibits agencies from hiring employees who use tobacco products. Delray Beach isn't alone though; other Florida cities such as Hollywood and Hallandale Beach, require prospective employees to sign affidavits declaring themselves tobacco-free for 12 months prior to the date of application. Throughout the states, both government and businesses are moving to ban tobacco-use beyond working hours. Many medical facilities, e.g. hospitals, have implemented or intend to implement similar policies. In some more-aggressive environments referred to as nicotine-free, employee urine-samples can be taken and tested for any presence of nicotine, not excluding that from gum or patches. Employees testing positive can be terminated.

As much as I dislike cigarettes, this is going a bit far. Of course, attack the user, not the supplier. Totally logical.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

This is utterly ridiculous. Your employer has no rights over you outside working hours in the first place, and nicotine does not affect job performance. This is discriminatory.

[Reelya]

Seems they want the best of both worlds. In feudal society, lord and peasant both had duties and obligations. Now, your boss only wants to be accountable to you during work hours, but expects you to be accountable to him 24/7.

[Leafsnail]

That post doesn't tell the whole story.  It links to a source which does at least.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/02/delray-beach-florida-bans_n_1933172.html

It's another completely avoidable problem caused by health insurance.

[Reelya]

Lol, that kind of makes it worse since it's totally not about caring about people's health at all, but about saving a dollar. And the only reason it's "smokers" is that they are not considered a protected class under anti-discrimination laws.

They'd pretty much ban workers with any pre-existing condition which could raise insurance costs if they could get away with it. I guess smokers lose because they are a "low sympathy" group.

[GreatJustice]

There's one problem with saying "$300,000 in school fees is no problem, because you earn money after that pretty easily". The key term is that you earn the money after, not before. Which means anyone who cannot access $300,000 is denied the education regardless of talent. Thus ensuring only a select few with money can access the education, keeping doctors relatively scarce, but also reducing competitiveness (it's basically Affimative Action, but favoring rich people).

It's basically like Affirmative Action, but favoring rich people. Only the wealthy can access the courses, keeping numbers down, fees high, and making doctors face less competition after graduation, which keeps medical prices high. That's because an arbitrary screening process (how rich you are) distorts competition based on pure talent.

Where exactly does one get that money without low-interest student loans provided as a public service. Private banks tend to not want to give that sort of huge loan unless you're buying some sort of property which can be repossessed if you fail payments. Classes cannot be repossessed, and if you "drop out" or fail to find a job, you declare bankruptcy and the bank loses out.

Saying medical students should just work their own way through college to pay for fees, books and living expenses, also reduces the amount of time they have to study. With doctors in training, this isn't just something that affects themselves, it's potentially lives at risk.

You just made an excellent argument against the AMA on my behalf. Thanks, Reelya!

Maybe "1st world" Europe is different, though.

Did you just imply Europe is not "first world" because we don't pay our doctors as much?

Quite the opposite, I was wondering if it was being implied that Canada and the US were not first world, because I've never heard anyone claim that  doctors weren't paid well before.

Anyway, seeing as how you want a source:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/09/14/canadian-doctors-still-make-dramatically-less-than-u-s-counterparts-study/

Primary-care physicians include family doctors, pediatricians, internal-medicine specialists and obstetrician-gynecologists. Those in the U.S. earned an average after expenses in 2008 of $186,582, versus $125,000 in Canada, $159,000 in Britain and just $92,000 in Australia.

So in short, I was incorrect in that British doctors actually DO make quite a lot of money after all. However, the only "underpaid doctors" here are apparently Australian. (Yes, I know the National Post isn't a great source, but it certainly is sufficient for the purposes of the discussion unless someone finds something contradictory).

It's funny because as I posted earlier in the thread, Europe has the top countries ranked by the World Health Organisation in health care.

And they're all '' socialist''.

EDIT: yes I'm quoting myself from the other thread. Deal with it.
 

Pretty sure greatjustice is a troll. He never did respond to all my facts on socialism in Singapore (since I was there) and how WHO rated a bunch of socialist countries with best health care in the world.

When presented with facts he either runs or threadshits a bunch of irrelevant or false information.

I'm replying to this in the other thread, but this is literally of no relation to the present discussion whatsoever