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[evilcherry]

I don't understand the fuss about multiple heroes here. Having to use a 1d6 and paper is a very horrible thing to do in a ccg.
Perhaps to simplify things up, or to provide a more concrete platform for everyone to move on:

Hero Cards: The main driving force behind the game. Hero Cards are, broadly speaking, divided into actions, equipment, resources, and race+class;
Also, they are divided into different colors for different classes, i.e. play-styles(a la MtG).
When playing cards, they have to discard (and/or play, or activate; activate is something i tend to avoid as it is too MtG-ly) a set number of cards, which a set number of them should be its color.
Treat Xp as extra cards you can play, and they should expire the next turn (to prevent hoarding up).
Races and Classes is just a special class of equipment, as it not only strengthens you but regulates what kind of actions and equipment you can equip.
Some Hero Cards might dictate the playing of Dungeon cards.

As for dungeon cards, I prefer a simpler mechanism to all these. As the situation dictates the next dungeon card be turned over (for a lack of it, or a dungeon card which calls for one, or a hero card, or so on), the player should then discards the next x dungeon cards as its cost, so the strength of dungeons could be balanced. Some cards might have low cost, but provides a large xp bonus once vanquished, some might be opposite. This could promote different play-styles.

[webadict]

I don't understand the fuss about multiple heroes here. Having to use a 1d6 and paper is a very horrible thing to do in a ccg.
Perhaps to simplify things up, or to provide a more concrete platform for everyone to move on:

Hero Cards: The main driving force behind the game. Hero Cards are, broadly speaking, divided into actions, equipment, resources, and race+class;
Also, they are divided into different colors for different classes, i.e. play-styles(a la MtG).
When playing cards, they have to discard (and/or play, or activate; activate is something i tend to avoid as it is too MtG-ly) a set number of cards, which a set number of them should be its color.
Treat Xp as extra cards you can play, and they should expire the next turn (to prevent hoarding up).
Races and Classes is just a special class of equipment, as it not only strengthens you but regulates what kind of actions and equipment you can equip.
Some Hero Cards might dictate the playing of Dungeon cards.

As for dungeon cards, I prefer a simpler mechanism to all these. As the situation dictates the next dungeon card be turned over (for a lack of it, or a dungeon card which calls for one, or a hero card, or so on), the player should then discards the next x dungeon cards as its cost, so the strength of dungeons could be balanced. Some cards might have low cost, but provides a large xp bonus once vanquished, some might be opposite. This could promote different play-styles.

A 1d6 is horrible? Wha? No it's not. It's there for a random factor. Some cards have random factors. Paper is also not bad, as most people can afford a piece or two. I know some families might have to go without, but I think that's a price we have to pay.

As for the Dungeon card payment: that plan sucks. Simply put, I have my Dungeon deck full of 15-card-cost cards. First one pops up and murders your Hero. I laugh. Game's over. Not only this, but there is zero elements of strategy to that. It's purely random, which apparently is not okay for dice, but plenty fine with cards. The point is to conserve Resources to bring out tougher Dungeons, stronger Equipment, or whatever. Paying that cost with cards won't work.

And not every room is beatable by a Hero.

[evilcherry]

Maybe I'm more of an Eurogamer than a CCG or Ameritrash player; Using a dice is a very, very big no-no as it adds too much uncertainty in a card game, which already have a great deal of uncertainty in terms of shuffling the deck. You already do not have all your guns in hand; and if your guns tend to dud on a d6, it leads that a bad roll would further cripple a bad draw.
I can stand a d6 for some exotic weapons which has a random effect, or a priest which tend to enchant weapons in a randomy fashion; but I hate having to roll d6s for attacks in general. Paper is also bad - keep things simple, really. If a mechanism can be done with only stones, do them in stones. If you really want 1d6 darts, just put 1d6 stones on darts. If armor is meant to be ablative, use stones to represent durability. If a particular card is used as an weapon enchantment, just attach it. Bookkeeping is what make typical ameritrash more fiddly than euros (not saying that ameritrash is trash, but it is only from an euro perspective).

As per the dungeon room idea, it was just a starting point; I do not gave much thought in it. Maybe a dungeon which consists of 60 15-costers is too extreme, and should be cut down a bit. There must be some mechanisms on-board to dictate a player to mix his dungeon up with weak and strong rooms (or monsters). A easy way to implement it might be an one-epic rule, though rooms that can be invested into (and made stronger) is also a good idea.

[webadict]

Maybe I'm more of an Eurogamer than a CCG or Ameritrash player; Using a dice is a very, very big no-no as it adds too much uncertainty in a card game, which already have a great deal of uncertainty in terms of shuffling the deck. You already do not have all your guns in hand; and if your guns tend to dud on a d6, it leads that a bad roll would further cripple a bad draw.
I can stand a d6 for some exotic weapons which has a random effect, or a priest which tend to enchant weapons in a randomy fashion; but I hate having to roll d6s for attacks in general. Paper is also bad - keep things simple, really. If a mechanism can be done with only stones, do them in stones. If you really want 1d6 darts, just put 1d6 stones on darts. If armor is meant to be ablative, use stones to represent durability. If a particular card is used as an weapon enchantment, just attach it. Bookkeeping is what make typical ameritrash more fiddly than euros (not saying that ameritrash is trash, but it is only from an euro perspective).

As per the dungeon room idea, it was just a starting point; I do not gave much thought in it. Maybe a dungeon which consists of 60 15-costers is too extreme, and should be cut down a bit. There must be some mechanisms on-board to dictate a player to mix his dungeon up with weak and strong rooms (or monsters). A easy way to implement it might be an one-epic rule, though rooms that can be invested into (and made stronger) is also a good idea.

Oh, no, I mean that d6s can be used for things. I do NOT want to see them for attacks. I mean for special effects, they might require a die.

As for the discarding thing, it's not a very good way to play. It basically involves playing one card at a time, hoping you get the best one, but it will probably be discarded. Not really all that strategic.

[evilcherry]

as said I do want to keep the main driving force in terms of hero cards. So dungeon cards would be best described as a "pseudo-random pile of challenges which total value would probably be so and so".

[Rooster]

I'll have to sort this stuff into a compact version that is easy to read, so we can then finally choose an option.

Both webadict and evilcherry are both right at the same time.

Reading development blogs on M:tG website, I came upon a blog that said that people actually dislike random chance in games. However that would contradict itself with the nature of a ccg, because you shuffle your cards at the start of the game. That is enough to ensure randomness. In Blood Bowl there is a lot of dice rolling, and it does make sucky games where all dice rolls are against you. That would surely make a game unfun, right? Not quite, because there is strategy involved in risk managment. Also pokemon is a very sucessfull game. It has a lot of coin flips involed. In the first edition alone there are cards that require 3-4 coin flips. But you know what negates randomness? More randomness. Eventually rolling a lot of dice or flipinng a lot of coins negates randomness because things tend to average out. For example Warhammer 40k has about 40 dice rolls on one charge. It is a very sucessfull and fun game.

tl;dr

Randomness is not a bad element at all. Bad use of randomness that makes a game a coin flip is bad.

[evilcherry]

It is not that randomness is bad, but randomness that can't be managed and have obvious good and bad results are bad.

A CCG is inherently random, but you can manage it by altering deck composition. If your strategy is centered on a few cards, for example, you will probably put the means to search for and power them in the deck, if these cannot be drawn. Or you might pack a plan B while you turtle for your plan A. either way, you remained in control, even if the circumstances isn't perfect.

But for example, if you get 1d6 darts for playing a card, then you throw 1. You are probably screwed, unless the cost of such card is token.

And it is very, very hard to manage a dice throw in a ccg, unless you are doing it a la Troyes, when dice isn't just dice, and you can pay to change it. Though it could make a very good CCG, I doubt this is a good idea for this game.

[adwarf]

Yes, but this CCG is supposed to be rogue-like style, so the d6 really fits the premise of the game. Of course we could add things that modify the rolls, and such to make it balanced, but the d6 still remains, because the base elements of the game are rogue-like-esque

[Powder Miner]

Oh god, no using a paper. If a game is so complicated that it doesn't fit on the cards and needs to burn through paper jut to keep track of things, then it is not right for a card game. Look a MTG. It's pretty complicated, yet it's not too complicated to play on the spot, and it's fun, both of which are why I like to play it. Webadict, if we're going dice and paper, it's looking more like a board game than a card game, Keep it simple and portable if it's a card game. for example, when I used to play Yu-Gi-Oh, something that majorly, majorly annoyed me was keeping track of the four-digit life totals and losses of life on a piece of paper. You didn't even have to do that, yet I pretty much had to do it because I played with my younger sister, and it was annoying, oh so annoying.

[webadict]

as said I do want to keep the main driving force in terms of hero cards. So dungeon cards would be best described as a "pseudo-random pile of challenges which total value would probably be so and so".

But, the goal is to balance a good defense (your Hero) with a good offense (your Dungeon). You can go for different strategies in both, but if you're only playing Hero, there isn't a player vs. player element here. You're better off playing by yourself.

Oh god, no using a paper. If a game is so complicated that it doesn't fit on the cards and needs to burn through paper jut to keep track of things, then it is not right for a card game. Look a MTG. It's pretty complicated, yet it's not too complicated to play on the spot, and it's fun, both of which are why I like to play it. Webadict, if we're going dice and paper, it's looking more like a board game than a card game, Keep it simple and portable if it's a card game.

There isn't like 50 stats to keep track of. Please read. I'm saying that if you have trouble keeping track of two (2) numbers in your head, then there is always paper. Some people can't do it, which may have been why we invented writing in the first place. I mean, Magic has a number to keep track of, right? Heck, you may not even have counters. What then?!? Jesus Christ, you're doomed.

[Powder Miner]

I have dice, I only just started using them as counters. I played fine until then since they're (the counters) pretty much all the same.

Edit: Oh, and I can still play fine without using them. I just use it sometimes if I feel like it.

I also added a bit to my previous post before you posted.

[webadict]

I have dice, I only just started using them as counters. I played fine until then since they're (the counters) pretty much all the same.

Edit: Oh, and I can still play fine without using them. I just use it sometimes if I feel like it.

I also added a bit to my previous post before you posted.

« Reply #54 on: Today at 11:28:17 am »

« Last Edit: Today at 11:28:59 am by Powder Miner »

No, you didn't.

Anyhow, if there are multiple Heroes with HP, then would that be MORE of a reason to simplify the game to one Hero? There will always be at least one number you have to know in the game (health), but for Resources, this hasn't been set. If they are reusable after being played, that's not a big deal. There just needs to be a way to pay for the cards.

[Powder Miner]

Before you posted means ninja'y kind of stuff. Specifically, I was editing and you posted, so I guess what I said was inaccurate, but oh well.

Also webadict, I am for one hero in the first place.

[Kashyyk]

So the current ideas Re. Heroes is:
Having one hero with hit points and changeable class/race
Having multiple heroes, each of a different class/race

I personally prefer the former.

[Skyrunner]

What about:

Multiple heroes with changeable class or race?