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[GlyphGryph]

The Curses forum is pretty much dedicated to the game. Do NOT download the copy from Toady's link - thats the old buggy version. (Well, I mean, you CAN. It's still a great game, even back then!) Download the copy from the link I just posted.

[Bookthras]

Oh, and there's a linux one! There goes the weekend, and the rest of March, I think. Will do, thanks for the pointer.

But back on topic: seriously, dude, great game, thank you. I loved it, and would have even if I lost. Just like the last of yours I played (the steel redux thing, with the overseer and webadict and "we declare world peace" thing), though the flavour wasn't nearly as good.

[Urist McUselessNoble]

This. Was. Awesome. The mechanics were well thought out,[1] and worked really well.

Spoiler: Caveat (1) (click to show/hide)

Except the multi-elimination D1 - Toaster really hacked that, and if we'd just done as he said (mea culpa on that one, guys) D1, it would have been "game over, insert coin to continue" then and there. That one really needed to be more of a lights out setup, where the lynchees are eliminated sequentially rather than all at once - because then Toaster's trick would be instant scum win if you get the lynch sequence wrong.

That said, however, the town was seriously overpowered.

Spoiler: Digression on game design (click to show/hide)

The town had, effectively,
- Two full cops[2]
- One one-shot cop[2]
- A doctor
- Two one-shot vigs
- One one-shot roleblocker
- And a double-voter.
The scumteam had:
- One miller (who didn't have any interesting powers, so mislynching him would not have been a great loss for town).
- One M/LyLo-breaker
- One LyLo-breaker
- And a cheap godfather knock-off. Tiruin's godfather ability would have been infinitely more credible if it had been SuCon across the board rather than ACon.
Actually, with the number of double-vote abilities

Native and Andrew got kinda shafted in the powers department as well, though Native's gimmick was at least no end of fun.

Another game design lesson we should take away from this is that two cops are way more than twice as powerful as one cop. Because two cops getting the same result on a chap means either three confirmed townies (and with only two scum, that means they aren't lying), who can vote as a bloc. Or one confirmed scum (which, however, says nothing about the alignments of the claimed cops).

[2] The issue inspect being only about half as effective as a full inspect, but having two of them per cop). With double-voter abilities as the cherry on top. This ability was an awesome idea, and I understand why we needed so many of them, because we had to be able to investigate the dead as well. But mine should have been a two-shot that investigated only one guy each shot, and the other two should have been able to target only one living and one dead (or two dead if they really wanted to). That would have been way closer to fair.

tl;dr: The power of cops scales much closer to quadratically than linearly in their number, because they can cross-examine the same townie to create confirmed scum or vote blocs of confirmed townies.

Game setup:

Believe it or not, there were NOT real people attached to any of these roles! In fact, I did not actually create any roles at all, before the game started!

Ah, the power of pareidolia. I did begin to doubt it once Native entered the race and we got the bland rolenames from Mii and Toaster. I guess there wouldn't have been enough real personalities in the running to make ten memorable roles anyway.

Also, I wonder why McNoble dropped his aggression in the second day there and deliberately asked on the Godfather role. But I'm proud of how everything went.

You should be. You played damn well, considering the crap hand you were dealt.

I went off your case temporarily because I was confused, and on re-reading my case it looked kinda weak in light of Book's inspect result. Besides, we were lynching Dariush Dariush, so there was a limit to how much real pressure I could place on you.

The day 3 bit was tough for scum, the key to avoiding it was, well... don't be the guy that wins the issues! Since you could influence them in secret, unless they're already pretty much ready to lynch you it shouldn't be much of a secret, and if you haven't yet claimed all the better.

The thing is, they couldn't shift anything in secret by D3, because we were few enough and had enough pairwise confirmed towns that we could pretty much nail down any fakeclaimed scumshift.

I still wonder, the scum only had a every-night NK, a revive and a Godfather (which I so badly played). Town survived in day 1 and 2 with good use of their powers. How would scum survive the day 3 issues? Or was it the early claim that faulted it?

They couldn't. With up to six inspects flying around N1, Dariush and Andrew had great, big "lynch me" signs on the back of their heads before the game even started. By then, a full issue-claim, or near enough as makes no matter, was almost certain to happen. And then you were hosed.

Any advice for later on games? My first ever full scum game.

You played very well, IMO. But I do note two things: First, you want to use "scum" for both the scumteam and the third parties. Only scum distinguish between the two - from the town's PoV they all gotta go, so who's who is something God can sort out after you lynch them. Second, you should have bussed Dariush. When you've got two cop inspects on a guy, and one of the three non-cop townies is jumping on that wagon much faster than he should, then that guy is dead and not bussing him is chasing a sunk cost. Bussing Dariush hard enough (but not too hard) - especially on the day after his one-shot rez fired - might have gotten us to look at Mii or Native instead of you.

I'm really bad at lying, don't you all think?

The town had hard evidence. And you can't lie in the face of hard evidence. Well, you can, but that won't actually help you.

But regarding Ron Paul and my mate McNoble: This was, believe it or not, his first game here ever.

My first game of Mafia, even.

He did wonderfully, and hope for him many successes in future games. In light of that, I yield my SuperWinner trophy to him, and give him first dibs on the special perks allowed in GlyphGryph's next game. Unless either of them object, I'll take the runner-up, stand-in position instead. The win was as much his doing as mine, if not more.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm certainly in the next game if my schedule at all permits it. I think congratulations to Toaster are in order too - he was the one who did the legwork D2 that gave us hard evidence on Tiruin. And then, with the lucky shot at Toony D1 (rereading, I don't think we actually had enough evidence on him that I'd lynch him if I had to do it all over again) it was really all over bar the crying.

[NativeForeigner]

That was really fun. I enjoyed playing primarily in-character (I hold a certain distaste towards Conservatism, so this was especially interesting). I'm just a little disappointed that the incumbent ended up holding the throne! I guess I still won with the Conservative victory, but I'm not exactly sure.

Edit:
McNoble: Congrats on your first game! You played very well, I never would have guessed!

[Urist McUselessNoble]

Reading the scumchat and laughing my ass off. You guys thought you could get Book mislynched D1? How, precisely, were you planning to build a case on him?

Also, damn how I misread Tiruin. You really had me snookered with your claim to not know American politics. I figured you to be politically naive, and Dariush to have come up with your fakeclaim (which I believed, by the way - it was a really good fakeclaim). And now I read the scumchat and it's the other way around. I do like how you took my abject misread of your ability to construct a convincing fakeclaim and turned it into a scary role power

[Bookthras]

tl;dr version of McNoble's wall of text above. Quoted and emphasised for utter unvarnished truth.

This. Was. Awesome.

Also:

I think congratulations to Toaster are in order too [...]

Certainly. I mentioned it earlier, and he's veteran enough not to crave them, but he absolutely engineered the eventual town victory. The superwinning thing was an artifact of the last day mechanics. The actual town victory was the result of the whole of the town working right and focused, which was Toaster's doing from D1 as much as anyone's. He knows I love him, even if I don't say it.


And Native:

That was really fun.

It was, wasn't it?

(I hold a certain distaste towards Conservatism, so this was especially interesting).

Don't we all?

I guess I still won with the Conservative victory, but I'm not exactly sure.

YES! You were town. Town won. You absofuckinglutely won this game, dude! Have no doubts, and have two drinks on me!

[NativeForeigner]

I guess I still won with the Conservative victory, but I'm not exactly sure.

YES! You were town. Town won. You absofuckinglutely won this game, dude! Have no doubts, and have two drinks on me!

Woohoo!. I've already had plenty tonight, thanks.

[Urist McUselessNoble]

Oh yeah. Now we can uncork the wine! Woohoo indeed. Drunken lewdness for everyone.

[Dariush]

Phew, finally this nightmare of a game is over. I mean, seriously. Too many shitty features slapped over a game which requires knowledge of american politics to make a believable fakeclaim.

[Tiruin]

Well, I must admit. NK'ing Toaster was on the back of my mind... Must be his avatar that stopped me, being all orange and appliancy. :I

Never suspected he was the doctor, as one of his powers was a trade-revive.

Also, Bookthras, I don't blame anyone if I don't get things. Please don't hold that label on me 

Congratulations McNoble! Your first game and...you did well as a cop and as a hunter. A tip, don't show doubt, especially if you have an investigate. You'll learn how to do it subtly, but don't go all open with your confusion. It's like a loophole that scum could jump through. You bluff well, though, in my opinion.

I wonder, how many people are laughing at the numerable fakenames I posted up in the scumchat...Yarr Politics. Sorry on that Dariush, I had no idea GG was not that serious in the naming.

And, yes. I should've bussed Dariush like a train driver. Regretted that in day three. But there was two cops when we discussed Book there in the scumchat so...

Proving two people wrong when the reputation of a cop is amiable in town's eye sounded real hard back then. Including the role-block power.

Just to clarify, was McNoble's role the only one to get an advantage as a VP? As in a late-game savior?

Toaster is the BM scum IC. Hope I didn't let him down. And then on the last day, the incumbent is realized...NativeForeigner had it coming.

Also,

...You really had me snookered with your claim to not know American politics. I figured you to be politically naive...

Does nobody read me correctly? 

I said I don't know much about American politics. Liberalism and Conservatism aren't used much in politics where I'm from. That, or I have a huge distaste on politicians, due to our...recent history...And one thing, I don't lie openly. (Alright, I did in day one if semantics is to be followed...) But still, I don't lie about following the basis of games or issues.

Anyone want to share wine with the disgraced liberal? And Mod GlyphGryph, am I still acceptable in any of your games? As I failed my Mafiosos and brothers.

Dariush, you could've gone with the "Devil's Advocate"  . The Social cop was dead and it matched your issue on Religion in-game.

Edit: The prospect of Cult Toony living past day 1 would mess up the play, seeing his abilities and comparing it with everyone elses, and he won't die when recruiting Mafia! We got the Watcher, the Cultist Leader and the Social cop in day 1, yay.

Edit II: On McNoble, your change in style made me suspect we had a Mason Team in game, especially when you guessed part of the plan later on. Though, even if the Mod doesn't say, being an unbiased source, that wasn't the grounds for suspect (other than the obvious lie that you pointed out well). And I was amused when you popped up town, a lone townie.

I wonder though, as Jim Groovester and Dariush are the recent BM IC's, how did McNoble play?

To fix:

Another game design lesson we should take away from this is that two cops are way more than twice as powerful as one cop. Because two cops getting the same result on a chap means either three confirmed townies (and with only two scum, that means they aren't lying), who can vote as a bloc. Or one confirmed scum (which, however, says nothing about the alignments of the claimed cops).

We actually had three cops, I'm not sure as to what a third-party comes up in investigation, but by ToonyMan's alignment, then he had a good shot of fooling the cops as none of his issues were Liberal. And the cops investigated the issues, not the direct alignment.

Hm, should've brought the idea of a Rockefeller Republican earlier in game...Too late though.

And Is it possible for scum to have cops, as in scum investigators?

[Urist McUselessNoble]

It wasn't so much that my role got a boost from being VP as that it got nerfed as long as I wasn't.

And we did sort of start playing like a mason team, except without the sideband communications, when we started having a three-confirmed-townie complex going on D3.

And yes, a Rockefeller Republican would have worked for Dariush's fakeclaim. An Eisenhower Republican would as well, but those mostly have a D after their names these days.

I think I'd have gone for something gutsier, like claiming The Centrist Senator (a.k.a. the Lieberzombie), which would have given a convenient explanation for the one-shot revive (Independent Instead - when you get removed from the race, you re-try as independent), and he has actually run as a repug once or twice.

[GlyphGryph]

game critiques

Actually, think about Toasters plan for a minute. Lynch everyone but confirmed townie. What was the problem there, exactly?

Only the scum team had a revive!

Scum were literally guaranteed to get until day 2.

Also, I think you're discounting the abilities of the cult when arguing for the power of town. And the fact that the scum could be converted to it.

That said, yeah - Super-con across the board, or even just a more believable issue spread, would have been an improvement. It wasn't a perfect game, that much I'll admit. But I don't think it was anywhere close to a guaranteed town win.

[Dariush]

Rockefeller Republican
Eisenhower Republican

Who are all those people?!

Seriously, bringing RL knowledge about some topic into the game is not cool.

[Urist McUselessNoble]

Actually, think about Toasters plan for a minute. Lynch everyone but confirmed townie. What was the problem there, exactly?

Only the scum team had a revive!

OK, I can see that. The townie would've had to be a vig and gain D2 frontrunner status.

Still, game over N1 doesn't strike me as a stable design.

Also, I think you're discounting the abilities of the cult when arguing for the power of town. And the fact that the scum could be converted to it.

That's true, I suppose. Getting rid of the cult D1 was a stroke of luck for us.

Still, three cops and a doctor? And a roleblocker? In Paranormal, the town has to deal with dopps and the occasional hivemind, and they don't get that many toys.

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, I think the problem is I really should have given the scum secondary abilities. I was TOTALLY rooting for the scum to get two of the cop roles, though!

The scum were guaranteed the Deep Sleeper, and heavily weighted (It was them or the cult) towards receiving the revive, but yeah... I really should have thrown them another ability. Technically, they were ABLE to get another one, just not the way the dice fell.

Leaving it to the dice is not the best way to insure balance!