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[mobucks]

I'm a nit appalled at the trend of people continually bashing the justice system or calling it broken. When they are properly set up they add that extra layer of drama to fortress mode. I have a justice screen that is at least two pages long and have not had a single dwarf killed by it. Only caviar is needing to make a candy hammer.

Mandates? Once the justice system is set up, you can forget them entirely.

NO beatings ever take place. Beatings kill dwarves. (hammerstrikes are NOT beatings, the hammer must be on the ground, accessable to the Hammerer) ((Get rid of all hammers that are not the candy one so the Hammerer won't grab one of those and kill people with it. If you must have a hammer squad for killing, assign them individually and KEEP TRACK OF YOUR HAMMER STOCKS AND MELT ANYTHING NOT EQUIPPED ON THE MILITARY)) Suggesting wooden bows to perform beatings is dangerous compared to a candy hammer and a few chains behind steel doors.

Make ONE candy hammer in your fort. Make a stockpile 1x1 in the office of the Captain of the Guard or the Hammerer which is hopefully near the jails. Block all other stockpiles from getting that hammer and it will always be happily displayed, retrieved, and put back into that room till FPS death.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fully functioning setup.  Here is the hammer stockpile and a bucket from a previous law-breaker. As you can see I've been having some fun here. That empty stockpile is for goblin cages. Getting goblins into the cells has gotten some dwarves killed, oh yes. Two are permanently beserk and have ripped their chains off the wall. I auto-dumped the bodies out for burial but there is still clothing. The steel doors hold them all for quite some years now.

Fortwide happiness is 0/0/8/7/6/25/101 is good for a bit of drama. Maybe one criminal went melancholy.

Anways this post is taking longer than I wanted. Just sharing an opinion that maybe justice isn't for everyone but it certainly is functional and less deadly than people seem to think. I personally have a blast with it.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I'm a nit appalled at the trend of people continually bashing the justice system or calling it broken.

Only caviar is needing to make a candy hammer.

Mandates? Once the justice system is set up, you can forget them entirely.

NO beatings ever take place

That's pretty much a broken justice system you're describing there.

[mobucks]

Other than needing to make a candy hammer, I don't see anything broken with what you (I) listed.

[Pirate Bob]

Are you sure the dwarf was actually wearing the iron helm?  I am pretty sure iron should block all punches, although I am not certain how strong a legendary puncher would be.

...

But I'm 100% sure helm doesn't block all punches, unless the target is unconscious.
...

The reason the helm blocks all punches when the target is unconscious is that then the AI targets ONLY the head.  At other times there is a chance of it targeting facial features, which are not covered by helms.  However, Dwarf Fortress also doesn't allow for a very strong punch to the eye, for examples, to also damage the skull, as it doesn't currently model facial features as being located on top of the skull.

In other words, for the dwarf to have his skull caved in, as you reported, the AI would have to have scored a hit which targeted the head through his iron helm.  I do not believe this is possible, and will try to test it if I have time.  For now, I maintain that you are mistaken in your report.  I do believe that your dwarf died from being punched, (maybe in the throat for example?), but not to the head while wearing a helm.  It is also possible that he had dropped his *Iron Helm*, and was on the way to pick up a better quality one when he got interrupted for punishment...

Edit:
OK, so I tested it, and it does seem to be possible.  I am quite confused by this, as even bolts with their tiny contact area and very large momentum can nearly be blocked by iron helms (if you mod them to be just a little slower).  I assumed that dwarven fists must have a much larger contact area than bolts, and in many years of playing adventure mode I could swear I've never seen a punch penetrate iron armor.  However, I placed a modded dwarf with maxed out strength and size in the arena, and gave him grand master fighter and striker, and indeed he did explode a regular dwarf's head right through an iron helm with one heavy punch.  I guess grossly underestimated just how lethal a year or so of training makes a dwarf  .

Also, FYI, even a steel helm doesn't seem to be enough to stop the punch of a dwarf with 4500 strength.  The head doesn't explode in one hit, but the skull is still bruised.  After 4 hits, "the injured part collapses".  I also found that a normal dwarf with grandmaster striker/fighter could do damage through an iron helm, although again much less.

Here's the relevant modding of the dwarf:

Code: [Select]

[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:4500:4500:4500:4500:4500:4500:4500]              +
...
[BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:125:125:125:125:125:125:125]
[APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]
[BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:125:125:125:125:125:125:125]
[APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]

I believe these are the maximum possible size and strength for a dwarf, if you take a dwarf starting with the highest possible base strength (2250) and train them to max.  In other words, its quite likely that steel helms will be enough for anything you are likely to create in game.  Certainly for goblins, as they don't benefit from dwarven training.  That being said, the throat is not protected by any plate armor, and having it collapsed by a punch is...bad.

I did also confirm that attacks from normal dwarves with dabbling skills will be stopped by iron armor, which agrees with my experience from adventure mode.

TL:DR - don't assume your dwarves armor will protect them from justice punishments.  Either don't assign anyone to be hammerer or captain of the guard, or assign pansies with wooden/candy crossbows/hammers.

[Libash_Thunderhead]

OK, I finally found the log in the 46mb gamelog monster. So case closed.

The Swordguard punches The Axe Lord in the right upper arm with her right hand, bruising the bone through the ­iron mail shirt­!
The Swordguard punches The Axe Lord in the head with her left hand, bruising the muscle and fracturing the skull through the ­iron helm­!
The Axe Lord gives in to pain.
The Swordguard punches The Axe Lord in the head with her right hand and the injured part collapses into a lump of gore!
An artery has been opened by the attack!
Nish Etostavuz, Axe Lord has been found dead.

[Thisfox]

I'm a bit appalled at the trend of people continually bashing the justice system or calling it broken.

Only caviar is needing to make a candy hammer.
Mandates? Once the justice system is set up, you can forget them entirely.
NO beatings ever take place

That's pretty much a broken justice system you're describing there.

Doesn't seem broken to me. No beatings, just occasional imprisonments.

I have a few chains next to my well and waterfall, where dwarves can come and feed the prisoners and feel better about themselves. No beatings ever take place, and the chains seem to work fine. Personally I think imprisoning someone for not doing work seems a bit counterproductive: They can't do work! I wish chains were longer so that I could give them a larger area to work in while they're imprisoned. But otherwise, it seems to work fine. I've never seen the need to mine candy, so I keep to the wooden crossbow method if for some reason I can't pump out a few copper-plated bone-decorated gold and electrum chains.

[mobucks]

Candy hammer is amusing. Seems to be random whether they get jail time or hammer strikes. So having both is a plus. With those two options as punishment, you can equip your fortress guard however you want, as strong as you want, since beatings will never take place. Just want to clarify that hammer strikes are NOT beatings. Beatings are what happens when you don't have chains/cages designated for justice, or a free hammer for performing hammer strikes by the hammerer.

[Shonai_Dweller]

A hammerer exists to hit convicted criminals. That you need to equip him with a feather duster to avoid regular accidents, loss of legendary axedwarves and tantrum spirals is proof that there is something very, very wrong with the implementation of the justice system at the moment. If you need exploits to get something to work in a reasonable way then it's not working as planned and will need fixing at some point. Thus, broken.

[Jigowah]

Dwarven justice is brutal and I think I  enjoy it that way.  It just fits with their entirely neurotic existence.  I do wish that it would correct criminal behavior.  For example, I had a recent repeat offender axelord that would get depressed and cause fist-fight fatalities.  After 9 trips to jail, he was granted the ultimate honor of being a naked cave explorer.

Tangentially, I wish that you could do more for the insane.  I dislike that I can't even try to rehabilitate them, or just care for them and feed them.

Question: Is a military dwarf happier with or without a job in his downtime?  It was my understanding that a good program was to train them every other month, and give them jobs during their off time.  Perhaps I'm driving them too hard?

[Pearofclubs]

Dwarven justice is brutal and I think I  enjoy it that way.  It just fits with their entirely neurotic existence.  I do wish that it would correct criminal behavior.  For example, I had a recent repeat offender axelord that would get depressed and cause fist-fight fatalities.  After 9 trips to jail, he was granted the ultimate honor of being a naked cave explorer.

Tangentially, I wish that you could do more for the insane.  I dislike that I can't even try to rehabilitate them, or just care for them and feed them.

Question: Is a military dwarf happier with or without a job in his downtime?  It was my understanding that a good program was to train them every other month, and give them jobs during their off time.  Perhaps I'm driving them too hard?

Actual, real-life, human asylums were horrifying enough. I can't imagine the nightmare that would be a dwarven asylum.
So, naturally, +1 to this idea.

[NW_Kohaku]

Question: Is a military dwarf happier with or without a job in his downtime?  It was my understanding that a good program was to train them every other month, and give them jobs during their off time.  Perhaps I'm driving them too hard?

Dwarves that are recruits hate being assigned to the military, but dwarves that are experienced warriors (elite-level) prefer to be active all the time.  (They don't like being on patrol all the time, but they like to be active as military, and dislike other jobs.)

A good trick is to set up a rotation of training and patrolling, with patrolling aboveground at least 2 (nonconsecutive) months of the year topside to prevent cave adaptation. 

[Jigowah]

Ha.  Maybe Toady will make "Insane Asylum" a fortress embark scenario.  MAYBE IT IS THE CURRENT EMBARK SCENARIO.

Thanks for the tip NW_Kohaku.  I'll try that regimen out and see if morale improves.  I think a few of my dwarves are really poorly suited mentally to slaughter and I deserve this for not vetting anyone in any job whatsoever.

[Pirate Santa]

Personally I think imprisoning someone for not doing work seems a bit counterproductive: They can't do work! I wish chains were longer so that I could give them a larger area to work in while they're imprisoned.

Can a dwarf operate things while imprisoned?
I love the idea of chaining someone to a pump as punishment.
And if chains were just one square longer they could operate workshops.