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Author Topic: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___  (Read 312806 times)

bahihs

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1320 on: April 04, 2015, 10:57:31 am »

I started writing a thing yesterday, and now it's 14 pages (~4500 words) long. When it's finished, I want it to be a nonfiction story about how growing up in a technological age, surrounded by the Internet has affected my growth and development as an individual. I'm wondering if people at large would be interested in that sort of thing, because I'm thinking I might actually have enough to publish an eBook by the time I reach the present day. Currently it covers the first eight or so years of my life in very rough detail.

Growing Up Digital

Pretty cool. One word of advice, don't let up. Keep writing it even after you've reached the present day. For one, you might find that you run out steam after awhile (maybe just lack of interest, maybe writer's block, maybe you're too busy, whatever it is) and for another you might find that once you do get to the present, you need more material. Its better to wait and continue to write and be patient, then immediately publish.

Also, you might find that the content is less than 14 pages (given changes in font size, spacing etc.) and the content seems a little rushed at times (though given that you are describing yourself when you were very young, it is to be expected; all my memories from my formative years have been obliterated). May I suggest getting in contact with people who knew you at that time, for a different perspective (and perhaps even details you've forgotten)?

It is very nostalgic though, I've been through several of the same things you have (constant moving, obsession with videogames, getting into trouble - though for different reasons, the emulator and the dial-up bit made me sigh wistfully - those were the days...), I'd like to read more. And that's about the best compliment a writer can get, so...keep it up!
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itisnotlogical

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1321 on: April 05, 2015, 04:22:54 am »

Thank you very much, that was very encouraging :D I've reached a really hazy point in my memories, so yeah I'll probably need to do a little digging before I can write anything more from the point that I'm at. I might skip ahead a bit for the sake of keeping my pace up. I'll primarily be working on that Google document, so you can read there for any changes :D

I worry that I'm being too dramatic. Especially when I'm describing Halo and Runescape and how much of an impact they had on me, I can imagine people cringing at how obsessed I was over those games. At the same time though, I feel like it's necessary to get across the point that these had a big influence on shaping myself and how I view the world.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 04:24:53 am by itisnotlogical »
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1322 on: April 05, 2015, 08:52:28 am »

Thank you very much, that was very encouraging :D I've reached a really hazy point in my memories, so yeah I'll probably need to do a little digging before I can write anything more from the point that I'm at. I might skip ahead a bit for the sake of keeping my pace up. I'll primarily be working on that Google document, so you can read there for any changes :D

I worry that I'm being too dramatic. Especially when I'm describing Halo and Runescape and how much of an impact they had on me, I can imagine people cringing at how obsessed I was over those games. At the same time though, I feel like it's necessary to get across the point that these had a big influence on shaping myself and how I view the world.

I actually wrote my college application essay on how I was addicted to videogames and tge struggles with myself and depression I went through to turn over a new leaf. Wasnt an amazing essay, but it did get me in to University of Miami.

But anyways, I just wanted to say, write it how you want to, for those of us who grew up playing videogames instead of sports they ARE pretty dramatic and have profound influences on us.
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AlStar

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1323 on: April 06, 2015, 11:27:12 pm »

It's been a good long while since I was last in this thread (I blame my current job blocking the forums). I'm in the process of writing several different things that I hope will eventually turn into stories, but here's what I've currently got of my most recent one (any thoughts/criticisms/etc. welcome):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

bahihs

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1324 on: April 07, 2015, 11:56:48 am »

It's been a good long while since I was last in this thread (I blame my current job blocking the forums). I'm in the process of writing several different things that I hope will eventually turn into stories, but here's what I've currently got of my most recent one (any thoughts/criticisms/etc. welcome):
Spoiler: My edits to the story (click to show/hide)

Alright, I've given very little critique in this thread so I think its time I change that.

My critique is divided into two areas:
1. The writing
2. The story

For #1, take a look at my edits under the spoiler above. Here is a key to various marks used:

{}->{} = Rearrangement of a string or a change in its tense
[] = Added string
string(string)= Replace old string with (enclosed string)
string= Self explanatory: delete the string
() ##= #Comment refers to# (enclosed string)
(syn)= Use a synonym instead of the (word)

I edited following Orwell's 6 rules of writing: taken from Politics and the English Language as well as the guidelines set forth in Strunk and White (link should be in the OP of this thread). The main problem here seems to be with excessive use of adjectives and adverbs and some cliched expressions/similes (one or two). There are also too many constructions with multiple dependent clauses, leading to long-winded sentences. A few is fine, but there are too many in this short piece. The word choice (particularly with verbs) is excellent (no jargon, no long words), and the writing leans toward imagery which is always good. Passive voice is used in some places, which should be avoided.

Now as for #2: Very scenic, but little substance. It's very difficult to know what's going on from this snippet. Clear sense of a steampunk/siege setting but there is no "story" to speak of with something so short. Can't really comment on this until more is written.

Feel free to ask me questions regarding the edits (here or PM, I don't mind either).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:44:33 pm by bahihs »
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Arx

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1325 on: April 07, 2015, 12:53:06 pm »

I'd just like to observe that I personally absolutely detest that style of critiquing. Everything that follows is entirely based on opinion:

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but to me it looks like you've basically reworked the piece to use your writing voice, which is bad. Also, you've edited according to a completely arbitrary set of rules. So, uh, you've edited it to be in a combination of your voice and George Orwell's, which I'm inclined to say will only stifle creativity in writing style. Also, I know that I much prefer to be able to rework my own stories, and not be handed an edited version for two reasons: the first is that you as the editor don't understand the subtleties of the author's intentions, and the second is that it's (for me) better for improvement to work over the piece personally. (And I don't even know what this counts as except not particularly mature, but I find it amusing that you used the passive voice to criticise their use of passive voice. Was that intentional?)

I am by no means going to tell you not to do that, but I am going to ask that you not do it to my stories. Everything you said apart from the edited version I'm okay with, though.
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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1326 on: April 07, 2015, 01:29:27 pm »

To be honest, I agree with bahihs.

For an action scene, you tend to have very long sentences, which makes everything feel slow. But he said it much more thoroughly than i did.
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bahihs

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1327 on: April 07, 2015, 01:35:32 pm »

I'd just like to observe that I personally absolutely detest that style of critiquing. Everything that follows is entirely based on opinion:

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but to me it looks like you've basically reworked the piece to use your writing voice, which is bad. Also, you've edited according to a completely arbitrary set of rules. So, uh, you've edited it to be in a combination of your voice and George Orwell's, which I'm inclined to say will only stifle creativity in writing style. Also, I know that I much prefer to be able to rework my own stories, and not be handed an edited version for two reasons: the first is that you as the editor don't understand the subtleties of the author's intentions, and the second is that it's (for me) better for improvement to work over the piece personally. (And I don't even know what this counts as except not particularly mature, but I find it amusing that you used the passive voice to criticise their use of passive voice. Was that intentional?)

I am by no means going to tell you not to do that, but I am going to ask that you not do it to my stories. Everything you said apart from the edited version I'm okay with, though.

I am sorry that I offended you. Let me address some of the points you raised to at least justify myself (a little):

1. "I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but to me it looks like you've basically reworked the piece to use your writing voice, which is bad"

I haven't done that actually, if I had, there would be greater changes in syntax, word choice, word order etc. etc. Furthermore, I wouldn't consider myself to have a "voice". Truly enduring writers have a "voice"; its beyond good or bad writing.

2. "So, uh, you've edited it to be in a combination of your voice and George Orwell's, which I'm inclined to say will only stifle creativity in writing style."

If I've edited to fit Orwell's voice (again see above regarding voice), then it can only be for the better. Orwell is generally considered to be a great writer (one of the "enduring writers" I just spoke of) and if one's writing is similar to his, its a helluva good start. Also, I disagree that emulation will "stifle creativity". This is a very common misconception, both in art (copying drawings or emulating technique) and in writing. The reason is simple, "writing style" emerges from emulation. By copying the style of various authors you begin to construct your own, this is not merely my own opinion but that of many other accomplished writers.  In any case, I don't believe I was enforcing any "style" or "voice", since the rules I used are more or less universal (i.e recommended by all professional writers).

3. " Also, I know that I much prefer to be able to rework my own stories, and not be handed an edited version for two reasons: the first is that you as the editor don't understand the subtleties of the author's intentions, and the second is that it's (for me) better for improvement to work over the piece personally. "

Fair enough, but given the medium, I find its just faster to edit everything first, then work out the authors meaning in subsequent posts. My edits are by no means the final word, there are the start to a discussion where such subtitles can be explored. I also give some reasons for my edits, which I made sure were grounded in the universal rules I spoke of above.

4. "(And I don't even know what this counts as except not particularly mature, but I find it amusing that you used the passive voice to criticise their use of passive voice. Was that intentional?)"

Did I lol? And no it wasn't intentional, I'm just a little more lax when it comes writing something which is not going to be critiqued.

5. "I am by no means going to tell you not to do that, but I am going to ask that you not do it to my stories"

I'm sorry you feel that way. I did put a lot of effort into editing the mentioned piece (something like 2 hours) and I would do the same for yours. However, if you don't want me critiquing your stories, that's totally fine. I'm just trying to help lol, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.   

EDIT: Actually, as I re-read my edits I can see several things that I missed on my first pass.
EDIT: Ok, I fixed them.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:45:06 pm by bahihs »
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Arx

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1328 on: April 07, 2015, 01:48:44 pm »

Oh, I have no objection whatsoever to you critiquing my stories. I'd just prefer you didn't edit them. I guess it bothers me in part because I tend to choose my words very carefully based on connotations and stuff and be pretty protective of my writing. It's not just a statement that certain things need to be improved, it's a statement that you know exactly how to improve the things.

I tend towards thinking the strictures of the language you're writing in are the only hard-and-fast rules of writing, and even those aren't hard or fast. This kind of conflicts with editing things according to a set of rules, even a good one. It's like editing poetry so that all the lines are end stopped and it rhymes in couplets; it's not inherently bad poetry, but...

I'm okay with rules, but thoroughly against following them in all circumstances and as though they cannot cause problems.

Please, critique away. As I said, everything you said that wasn't the editing I am okay with (and agree with), and I can see the reasoning behind the editing. I just have something of a knee-jerk reaction to a) rules claiming to be universally improving and b) editing of more than grammar. The latter is probably because almost all of my experience with it in my own stories has been bad.

On consideration, I should really just have gone with cherrypicking your edits if you did edit one of my stories and not brought this up. Oh well.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 02:01:45 pm by Arx »
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bahihs

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1329 on: April 07, 2015, 02:30:51 pm »

Oh, I have no objection whatsoever to you critiquing my stories. I'd just prefer you didn't edit them. I guess it bothers me in part because I tend to choose my words very carefully based on connotations and stuff and be pretty protective of my writing. It's not just a statement that certain things need to be improved, it's a statement that you know exactly how to improve the things.

I tend towards thinking the strictures of the language you're writing in are the only hard-and-fast rules of writing, and even those aren't hard or fast. This kind of conflicts with editing things according to a set of rules, even a good one. It's like editing poetry so that all the lines are end stopped and it rhymes in couplets; it's not inherently bad poetry, but...

I'm okay with rules, but thoroughly against following them in all circumstances and as though they cannot cause problems.

Please, critique away. As I said, everything you said that wasn't the editing I am okay with (and agree with), and I can see the reasoning behind the editing. I just have something of a knee-jerk reaction to a) rules claiming to be universally improving and b) editing of more than grammar. The latter is probably because almost all of my experience with it in my own stories has been bad.

On consideration, I should really just have gone with cherrypicking your edits if you did edit one of my stories and not brought this up. Oh well.

I'm afraid I can't seriously critique any writing without editing it. 90% of my "critique" are the edits I make (90% of the time/effort is also spent on editing). You'll have to take the good with the bad, I'm afraid.

Word choice is important (if you look at the edited piece, I left in the adjective "towering" in "...towering ten feet height..." mostly because of the alteration and assonance) and I try to tiptoe around it when I can.

I don't think you should be protective of your writing, but I think that is more a difference in philosophy than anything else (I feel this stifles "style" and "voice"). It's also very difficult to do.

I don't know exactly how to improve things. In fact, in the edited piece, I have mostly kept the authors original words, only adding words to ensure grammatical correctness. Most of the time I've removed or rearranged the words. My edits are suggestions, not commandments. They are a starting point, not the finish line.

Rules are good things. You follow them until you see their purpose, then you break them as necessary. One of my favorite authors is James Joyce and he is one of the biggest rule-breakers there is (to the point that his writing is almost incomprehensible), but he can do that because he so thoroughly understands the purpose of the rules. The point is, none of us here are good enough to claim we don't need the rules (if we were why would we be here? We'd already be accomplished authors). In any case, the rules are more like guidelines: rails toward good writing, not a replacement for good writing.

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Parsely

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1330 on: April 07, 2015, 02:52:57 pm »

I'd just like to observe that I personally absolutely detest that style of critiquing. Everything that follows is entirely based on opinion:

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but to me it looks like you've basically reworked the piece to use your writing voice, which is bad. Also, you've edited according to a completely arbitrary set of rules. So, uh, you've edited it to be in a combination of your voice and George Orwell's, which I'm inclined to say will only stifle creativity in writing style. Also, I know that I much prefer to be able to rework my own stories, and not be handed an edited version for two reasons: the first is that you as the editor don't understand the subtleties of the author's intentions, and the second is that it's (for me) better for improvement to work over the piece personally. (And I don't even know what this counts as except not particularly mature, but I find it amusing that you used the passive voice to criticise their use of passive voice. Was that intentional?)

I am by no means going to tell you not to do that, but I am going to ask that you not do it to my stories. Everything you said apart from the edited version I'm okay with, though.
To me it seemed like an objective criticism (except for the bits about cliched mannerisms). He makes fundamental points using constructive editing. Run on sentences are grammatical errors and objectively wrong. It's no different than pointing out the mistakes with your finger and telling him about it. And aside from that, since when are we not supposed to offer our subjective opinions on a piece of writing based on the way we write?
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Arx

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1331 on: April 07, 2015, 03:09:24 pm »

There's a reason my post is liberally scattered with emphasis on the fact that it's my opinion, and why I'd rather not be critiqued like that. I explained why I disliked it, and in my second post said that I would actually probably be okay with it.

At no point did I say it was objecticely bad, or at least I tried very hard to avoid giving that impression, and I stated repeatedly that I was okay with things like grammatical editing and that I agreed with the meat of their critique. I was very much triyng not to make it seem like they shouldn't ever offer criticism like that, but rather explain why I personally dislike it.

bahihs and everyone else, I apologise; this was poorly thought through. Can we go back to writing?
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bahihs

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1332 on: April 07, 2015, 03:15:38 pm »

There's a reason my post is liberally scattered with emphasis on the fact that it's my opinion, and why I'd rather not be critiqued like that. I explained why I disliked it, and in my second post said that I would actually probably be okay with it.

At no point did I say it was objecticely bad, or at least I tried very hard to avoid giving that impression, and I stated repeatedly that I was okay with things like grammatical editing and that I agreed with the meat of their critique. I was very much triyng not to make it seem like they shouldn't ever offer criticism like that, but rather explain why I personally dislike it.

bahihs and everyone else, I apologise; this was poorly thought through. Can we go back to writing?

Np Arx, water under the bridge (I never took offence in the first place, so nothing to apologize for). Lets get back to writing!
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AlStar

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1333 on: April 08, 2015, 08:16:59 pm »

Well, for what it's worth, I appreciate the time you put into looking at my piece bahihs - thanks.

Looking over your edits, I've got a problem with using too many adverbs - it's a known problem, which tends to come up in my first drafts. I also tend to repeat words, although it looks like I managed to mostly avoid that particular pitfall this time around.

Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #1334 on: April 08, 2015, 09:16:20 pm »

I have a bit of a cognitive bias against adjectives in that I think that the more you use them the more you tell and don't show. There's some basis in fact in it, but mostly it's just being picky. It is however, a good exercise to partake in; wherever you see an adjective in the story see if you can describe the action in a sentence or two to paint a more vivid image.

Anyways, take some poetry:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you don't like poetry, take some flash fiction:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've already had a workshop on this last piece and it's become apparent that there are some errors in paragraph formatting, which I have yet to fix, and also that it needs some cleaning up. But I figured i'd post it anyways. The original story was just about Diego and his sandals, but thing just kind of changed. I think I might rewrite it to focus more on the sandals and fix some POV problems.

Anyways, have fun, go to town, etc. etc. always looking for critique.
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