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[fqllve]

Not when I do it, apparently...

Maybe it's about being really honest about it. When I do it I put in lots of disclaimers that I realize that it's all subjective, that it may depend on my mood and various other bias... I guess I should work on it. Pure unadulterated hate.

It's not that. Insults might motivate someone into action, but they don't offer specific criticism. They're broad and not very illuminating about what the exact weaknesses of the piece are. Saying something like 'I don't know how you could be satisfied with the plot' doesn't explain what exactly the problem with the plot is. If the writer is experienced they may have their own ideas about their failings, but as you mention, since so much is subjective, those might be very different things than what you're getting at because, ultimately, if the person already had an idea of what was wrong with their story wouldn't they change that before they ask for feedback? Or preface the work with something like 'Hey, I think this starts a little slow, tell me what you think.' Of course, in my experience if you think somethings wrong with your story it is, because the story must please you before it'll please anyone else, but that's a bit off topic.

Plus, if the person disagrees with you about the feedback (oftentimes I get embarrassed by criticism because I know it's true, but a lot of the time criticism just isn't helpful or really that relevant, and I'm sure you've experienced this before) then you're automatically putting the person in a position of defense which makes them less likely to listen to anything else you say, even if you point out something that they already know is wrong with the work. Insults can be useful but only in circumstances where the author knows what's wrong and is shirking on their duties, not when they are unsure about any problems.

And speaking for myself, I didn't come here asking for derision of my person and I didn't need nor want it. I'm certainly well enough motivated, but there is only so much you can learn about the details of a story from your own perspective, and getting multiple perspectives is important and certainly worthwhile. If I want to be insulted I am more than capable of doing that myself, because I'm better aware of my flaws than anyone else is.

[Ehndras]

Thanks for the comments, AlStar, much appreciated. I have certain bad traits that have gone through my writing over the years. Its always good to look at what you did in the past since many of the same characteristics will undoubtedly shine through.

I still have the tendency to over-saturate my work with too many details, ultimately watering down the story with too more information than one should need to process.

Also, yeah. I had an obsession with the word crimson as a kid.

---

Concerning the criticism discussion, I don't really mind. You SHOULD be straightforward about criticism. I'd appreciate blunt sincerity over watered-down "I don't want to hurt your feelings so I'm going to dumb this down".

Criticize like a literary editor, not a friend. End of story.

[Fishbreath]

What about one of part-time jobs? Although I can certainly understand doing what you like and having a perfectly stable source of income besides; and having a somewhat easier process to receive paycheck / pay taxes.

I wonder what your day job is, though (if that's alright to ask).

I'm a software engineer, so I probably could get by on contract work and leave myself some more time for writing, but at the same time, I'll stick with the salary until I've proven that I can make at least some money off of books.

I still can't do dialogue for absolute shit, I'm at that very same level quite honestly. Also, if you don't want to read it then don't, quite simply. I'll read something someone posts even if I think its utter shit, but maybe that's just me.

I'm going to offer a tip, but you should keep this piece of advice in mind before you read it: one of Aaron Allston's Star Wars books noted, "You can't look dignified when you're having fun."

The part of dialogue I struggle with the most is differentiating characters. In the story I just finished, there isn't a lot of talking, so I kind of escaped, but the first scene in my new story involved a character who talks like Nathan Zachary from Crimson Skies and a wildly stereotypical Frenchman (it's pulp; I'm gonna milk the stereotypes for all they're worth). With a cast like that, I couldn't really expect to skate by like I've been doing. I was having trouble at first, but then I started doing the dialogue aloud with myself, and although I earned myself some funny looks for talking with a cadence and intonation befitting a 1920s radio drama hero and a guy with a ridiculous Fransh acCENT, I can read the dialogue I wrote and actually see the difference (although we'll see if my volunteer editors think so too).

[Ehndras]

Bahahaha, I would have loved to see/hear that!

[fqllve]

Concerning the criticism discussion, I don't really mind. You SHOULD be straightforward about criticism. I'd appreciate blunt sincerity over watered-down "I don't want to hurt your feelings so I'm going to dumb this down".

Criticize like a literary editor, not a friend. End of story.

I think you've completely misinterpreted my point. There's a difference between the kind of concrete and explicit feedback an editor provides, which is in my experience very straight forward, and insults. I don't think editors resort to insults very often because if an editor is bothering to give you feedback it means they already want to publish your work. If I ever got a letter that read 'Hey FUCKASS, I love your story but this line makes my tongue turn to lye in my mouth' I might think about submitting elsewhere.

Anyway the kind of 'criticism' friends give is the least helpful of all because the entire spectrum from soul-crushingly terrible to pretty good is represented by a single line, 'I liked it.'

[Ehndras]

Oh no, I don't mean about delivery, I mean content of criticism.

Never be afraid to tear apart every tiny little detail. I usually see folks 'skim' with their criticism, rather than go heavily into detail about how much a particular idea sucks - and why.

[fqllve]

Oh, we're at 100% agreement then! That's the most amount of agreement there is. :0

[Supermikhail]

Bahahaha, I would have loved to see/hear that!

+1

@fqlive: Hey, cheer up, bro! I thought we got over that, no? Was correspondence with me so mortally insulting?

The thing with that incident was that, first, I didn't mean to make personal attacks; second, at one point I moved from the first paragraph to the whole piece and got overwhelmed. Yes, I honestly thought your story was complete garbage. Based on that I suggested that you should go back to step one: plot. There was some fooling with turns of phrase or something like that, but I think step one is the plot.

I don't know what more to say... I'd like to make amends, but I won't censor my opinion.

I don't remember calling you a FUCKASS, or indeed any names.

[fqllve]

The fuckass thing was totally a joke and not about you, actually. The whole thing was more my brand of insult anyway.

Anyway, I'm not worried about it any more, I was just making a point about insults in general. I certainly don't mind when someone insults my story, I just don't think saying things like 'it's complete garbage' is really helpful because it doesn't tell me why you think it's garbage, which is the kind of feedback that I really need. It's even more important that a person with less experience than me receive that kind of criticism because at least while I have some ideas as to what you could object to about it they're not really going to know.

But yeah, we're cool. I'm not holding anything against you, especially since you didn't mean to make any personal attacks.

[Supermikhail]

Well, as I said, your plot could use a stronger intro, conflict and resolution. And I've been hurting for a couple of months now with an idea to have a sort of outlining symposium, if you will, except I keep remembering that I'm most likely going away for the summer. The only comfort is that everyone probably is, too.

[Fiskav]

.

[Supermikhail]

Lack of content.

Here :

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Explosion!

You won't understand,
It's what my orders are -
To get from A to B,
And something about saving the world.

I'm not gonna pretend
That I don't like the odds.
I guess I'm on a spree
That'll end when I encounter your boss.

But for this case I saved some means for
An explosion!

The horizon is in fog.
My headphones on the fritz.
Soda on the keyboard.
How am I even managing to score a hit?

I guess it's just my luck
That when the cover's thin
Your bullets are so soft
And go in all directions but at me.

I savor times when there's a use for
An explosion!

Hm, something seems amiss.
You hardly twitch when shot,
As if the stakes are up
Or I am near the denouement, the finis.

The last grunt tastes my fist,
My rifle's last report...

I hear a thunderous drop;
He has some quality explosive means.

I know I would be screwed but for...
the arial strike on request.

Written at a time when it didn't really matter. Posted at a place where no one really cares.

[Ehndras]

That's actually really good, man. Writer's Apprenticeship be damned, poetry is just as much a valuable and artistic form of writing as prose.

[Supermikhail]

Writer's Apprenticeship be damned

Wait, what?

*Several minutes of intent staring at the OP.*

It says nowhere that it's only about prose writing! I'm gonna post a cat-grooming reference if I want to!

Er, in charade form.

[fqllve]

So I scanned a bit of your poem and while the meter is mostly regular (a little too regular for my tastes, in fact, but that's just me) there are a few parts that are different and kind of dissonant. For example I got this for the first verse:

-^/--^
-^/--^/^
-^/-^/-^
-^-/-^/^-/-^

See how the last line is kind of all over the place? It's got a whole extra foot and the first three quarters of it are kind of loose, so it falls apart in the reading of it. It probably wouldn't sound so off if the meter wasn't as regular for the first part as it is, but how it is now they kind of clash. Something like 'And then to save the world' or 'And save the world or something' would fit better. With the second you have the added benefit on having the joke of the line as the punch-word, as opposed to world.

In the first line of the second verse, it's really weird for gonna to be accented at all, but it seems to fit best with it on the second syllable, so maybe think about changing that? Going to has the same stress pattern, although sounds much more stiff. Furthermore, the last line is hard to read rhythmically. That'll is hard to say as one syllable, but the line pretty much requires it, and encounter really throws off the pace of the reading. Find or get to or something similar to one of those would probably have a better flow.

With the little chorus part, I'm guessing your using means as in 'the goods necessary to create' which is a really unorthodox usage. Maybe try something like 'But for this case I've prepared.' Fewer syllables, less obscure meaning.

In the third verse, the last line is really tangled up. To keep with the meter I basically have to read 'how am I even' as only two syllables. Maybe something like 'How do I manage to even score a hit' would work better. Although I find the rhyme at the end kind of trite and forced, that might just be my inclination to find all rhymes forced. However, it does feel especially so.

The rest seems like it's better off, although I didn't really make it than far with my scansion because the subject matter doesn't really appeal to me.