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[Leafsnail]

Spoiler: Orangebottle because I don't think anyone else should have to suffer Orangebottle's post (click to show/hide)

Lolno. I'm running under the assumption that the scum is just as powerful, if not moreso, than the town.
Besides, that scumslip doesn't point to me being a serial killer. Even I know that, and you're much better at this game than I. Why are you so reluctant to call me scum?

The first part is... wow.  Yeah, the mafia are probably as powerful as the town.  That's why one of the 3 killers could well be part of the mafia.  For some reason you don't seem to be considering this, and instead think that the mafia have gone to great risk to conceal their kill for no reason and all the claimed one-shot killers have to be town.

And it DOES point to you being a serial killer because I don't think the mafia would try to conceal an extra kill, wheras a serial killer would.  And serial killers are scum, so the last sentence in that paragraph is just as bad as the rest.  Although maybe you haven't quite worked out that if A is a subset of B and I call you A then I'm also calling you B.

Let's see here.
-We have a doctor and a bodyguard.
-We have multiple roleblockers/delayers, at least one is scum.
-You can't use my oneshot until after I'm dead.
-Scum blocks/delays the doctor and bodyguard, then kills me.
-Scum doesn't have to worry about the claim in the morning.

So... in the morning, the doctor claims to have been blocked, we lynch the blocker when we find out whose block is missing and the mafia wasted their kill on a serial killer bad player with a role that's lame other than its one-shot?  Sounds good to me.  I mean, I'm sure being killed in the night is a bad thing for a serial killer, but for the town attracting mafiakills when you're a bad player is probably the best thing you can do.

There's also the same situation if I get lynched, except with you as the target.

In which case same applies as above.

I have a question.
If I'm scum, what would I gain from claiming this oneshot?
What do I lose?

WIFOM makes the answers to both of these questions meaningless.  Although under "what would I gain" I would add "Not getting lynched for withholding your one-shot".

I'm saying that there's no point in lynching you today.  Because if you're scum you'll have to honestly use your ability if we make a plan (I have a feeling this is why you're against making a plan) and thus lockdown the scumteam.

That's not why I'm against making a plan at all. Perhaps you should read more. I've already said something about that.
Also, nobody seems to agree with you as far as not lynching me. Good luck with that.

Both of these points are completely irrelevant to what I said.  Cool.

I'm not responding to anything else either of you say until someone else who can play comes in here and explains why the town being able to lynch more people is a good thing, since clearly you aren't listening to me and maybe you just need webadict to pound it into your heads.

Also, don't tell everyone what to do with their roles. Rigid plans are easily broken and very easily exploitable if t he planner is scum.

The whole point of massclaiming is to make a plan, and if the whole town plans it then THE PLANNER CAN'T BE ENTIRELY SCUM.  Dear god how can you be so stupid about this.  Mafia can use their abilities for their own purposes if left to their own devices.

[Leafsnail]

Meant to post this in the same post as the last one, forgot to copy it in.

Spoiler: Power Miner so people who already know how to play mafia don't have to read this (click to show/hide)

We wouldn't have time to lynch townies four times in a row. We'd be dead by then except we'd probably have used the daygame to take care of scum.
I like how you forgot that point.

Huh?  This is exactly the point I was making.  Under normal circumstances, we can't make 4 mistakes.

Look, let me spell it out to you numerically.

10 townies, 3 mafia is most likely (yes it could be some other number but my argument still stands for any amount of scum.  And yes there could be lylo breakers or something but again my argument still stands.  No matter how you change the scenario it's still the same and my plan is still better).

Let's say we follow your plan and don't kill.  Let's charitably assume that all three killers are town (unlikely) so they won't try to break lylo as scum.  That means we can lynch incorrectly 3 times before entering lylo (after the first time there'd be 8 town v 3 mafia, then 6 town v 3 mafia, then 4 town v 3 mafia which is lylo).  So out of 6 shots, we'd have to get 3 right.  In other words, we'd need to be 50% accurate to win.

Now let's say we kill 3 people either today or tomorrow, having voted as a town on who to kill.  That means we'd be able to incorrectly pick up to 5 people while still only having to get 3 right (we get 4 shots today (or tomorrow if we don't have the time to pick the targets), then another tomorrow, then lylo).  That means we only have to be right 37.5% of the time.  In other words, we get more chances to be wrong.  We as a town get a grand total of 8 shots in which to kill 3 mafia instead of 6.

The only counter argument you seem to be bringing to the table is repeating (without reasoning) your assertion that

The only reason I can think of to kill people is if the mafia are all confirmed mafia.

And this rather nonsensical "comparison":

In a supernatural mafia I watched, a similar deal to this went off near the end of the game. A deal with the devil ended in three people vanishing, a kill being used, and that made the SK win. They thought it could all work out and that killing everyone would inevitably kill all the threats. So they tried. And they failed. And even then that was end the endgame with considerably more information and with (I think) less resistance being put up to the plan.

As the devil in that game, I can see that you're horribly butchering the situation that went down there.  The problem with the devil deal was that the town had the wrong targets in mind.  If the town had just suspected Solifuge of being a demon and lynched him then they could well have won on the last day (afterall, the Devil Deal eradicated most of their false leads and the Vampire Lord).

Another difference between this and the devil deal is that this time the town can just choose, by votes, exactly who is going to die, wheras the Devil Deal killed off some random people.  So this is like just having extra lynches, full stop.  No cost.

The fact that you're trying to push a massacre N1 with plenty of reasoning against it makes me very suspicious of you Leafsnail.

You've provided no reasoning against it, just a "I DON'T WANT TO WASTE MY KILL" repeated again and again along with one completely invalid analogy, and you seem to have a double standard between lynches and kills that has gone completely unexplained.  Also don't keep FoSing me, just vote me if you suspect me, although maybe you're just being logically consistent and proposing that we shouldn't lynch anyone unless they're absolutely 100% mafia (good luck with that).

[Darvi]

I will point out that you found Andrew out when he tripped up with a mispelling of a fake ability during the massclaim. During the day. I think we found the other one we killed as well via day, not night. Rushing in and killing everyone we can is stupid.

You might notice that BYOP has no relevance to my idea at all.

Also, don't tell everyone what to do with their roles. Rigid plans are easily broken and very easily exploitable if t he planner is scum.

I think I already mentioned somwhere that not everybody will be told their target beforehand. Instead, a few people who can block or redirect or whatever will have a couple of potential targets (non-overlapping, of course, because that way we can cover the most people), and they will decide their targets themselves. That way not only will we keep the scum guessing.

The whole point of massclaiming is to make a plan, and if the whole town plans it then THE PLANNER CAN'T BE ENTIRELY SCUM.  Dear god how can you be so stupid about this.  Mafia can use their abilities for their own purposes if left to their own devices.

This. Giving people some autonomy in who they target is one step in that direction, imo.

[Orangebottle]

Spoiler: Darvi (click to show/hide)

One or more of those roleblockers/redirectors are scum. Imiknorris's logic regarding that is safe enough.

Which is why we're gonna keep them busy. If we tell a roleblocker to block player X, and player X doesn't blocked, then we know the blocker's scum. If player X does get blocked, then the doc's got nothing to keep them from protecting. Same goes for redirectors.

Actually, we have wuba and Dariush. They can assist Jack, confirming their actions, while protecting you.

Totally forgot about them.
However, Dariush is almost guaranteed to not agree with it. There's no reversing his decision that I'm scum at this point, because I've pissed him off so much(which is why I didn't respond to his last post).

Yeah. I remember how much that helped you guys. We found all of them except for you and you wouldn't be lynched because all that was left were useless wastes of space and SK-Jim.

My multikill was the whole reason why the useless people were still alive and the useful people were dead.
So, you want the kills to target Powder Miner, Ottofar, MBP, and Imiknorris? Because you just called them useless.

Okay. How about that second question, then? What would I lose?

Exactly nothing. You'd be lynched for failing to deliver.

Getting lynched as scum isn't only a personal loss, it's a loss for the scum as a whole. They lose my vote, my abilities, my posts, and any opinions I could give on plans they might make. Also, your answer to the second question invalidates your answer to the first; I gain blackmail that serves no purpose, because I'd be found out by the second day.

Did you not think of all that?

What, confusion regarding my reasons for objecting to the massclaim, and "I'm about to be lynched" aren't reasons enough for you?

Just checkin'. Because that second reason is hella scummy.

Fully claiming before being lynched is scummy? I could've sworn that's why ECrownofFire was lynched a second time in the last BYO. Now I'm confused, thanks.

At any rate, I don't like being lynched, no matter what my alignment. It keeps me from playing the game.

I personally am fine with killing people who are prone to lurking or otherwise triggering false positives straight away. Because what if you don't use them that way? You keep on to them and then either die use them on those people who would be lynched anyway.

Also, the prospect of maybe getting to mylo and wasting all of scumteam's extra kills sounds like a better situation than reaching mylo the usual way only to be fucked over at that point.

I'm not okay with this plan. The scum are definitely going to try and steer the kills into townies. It's too good of a chance not to.

I will point out that you found Andrew out when he tripped up with a mispelling of a fake ability during the massclaim. During the day. I think we found the other one we killed as well via day, not night. Rushing in and killing everyone we can is stupid.

Also, don't tell everyone what to do with their roles. Rigid plans are easily broken and very easily exploitable if the planner is scum.

Yeah. One of our guys was obvscum, the other simply couldn't spell. The third was Webadict.

Orangebottle because I don't think anyone else should have to suffer Orangebottle's post

Yeah, I'm not going to justify that spoiler with a response after seeing it's name. It makes me wish I was a serial killer, so I could kill you at night instead of helping the town.

[Powder Miner]

Spoiler: Power Miner so people who already know how to play mafia don't have to read this (click to show/hide)

We wouldn't have time to lynch townies four times in a row. We'd be dead by then except we'd probably have used the daygame to take care of scum.
I like how you forgot that point.

Huh?  This is exactly the point I was making.  Under normal circumstances, we can't make 4 mistakes.

Us using the daygame to take care of scum is not the point you were making.

Look, let me spell it out to you numerically.

10 townies, 3 mafia is most likely (yes it could be some other number but my argument still stands for any amount of scum.  And yes there could be lylo breakers or something but again my argument still stands.  No matter how you change the scenario it's still the same and my plan is still better).

No matter how you change it, killing three people at once with no roleflip and no discussion, and no time to think about what to do next is a retarded idea.

Let's say we follow your plan and don't kill.  Let's charitably assume that all three killers are town (unlikely) so they won't try to break lylo as scum.  That means we can lynch incorrectly 3 times before entering lylo (after the first time there'd be 8 town v 3 mafia, then 6 town v 3 mafia, then 4 town v 3 mafia which is lylo).  So out of 6 shots, we'd have to get 3 right.  In other words, we'd need to be 50% accurate to win.

If they're not all town, then the mafia ones are almost guaranteed to kill town. And yes we can lynch incorrectly, but because of the daygame we might lynch scum. With your way there are far less chances to hit scum because instead of doing this logically, you're blindly killing three people/blindly killing some people and letting mafia kill the others. You wouldn't have to be 50% accurate- if they are mafia, that' be a guaranteed missed shot there. I actually don't see how you thought you were helping yourself there, no wait next paragraph.

Now let's say we kill 3 people either today or tomorrow, having voted as a town on who to kill.  That means we'd be able to incorrectly pick up to 5 people while still only having to get 3 right (we get 4 shots today (or tomorrow if we don't have the time to pick the targets), then another tomorrow, then lylo).  That means we only have to be right 37.5% of the time.  In other words, we get more chances to be wrong.  We as a town get a grand total of 8 shots in which to kill 3 mafia instead of 6.

There may be less mafiakills, but the information gained from additional night phases/day phases are valuable in catching scum. Skipping it all in an uninformed rush to kill everyone with the possibility of scum changing the kills isn't very good.

The only counter argument you seem to be bringing to the table is repeating (without reasoning) your assertion that

The only reason I can think of to kill people is if the mafia are all confirmed mafia.

And this rather nonsensical "comparison":

I only said that once, amid my other arguments. Try again.

In a supernatural mafia I watched, a similar deal to this went off near the end of the game. A deal with the devil ended in three people vanishing, a kill being used, and that made the SK win. They thought it could all work out and that killing everyone would inevitably kill all the threats. So they tried. And they failed. And even then that was end the endgame with considerably more information and with (I think) less resistance being put up to the plan.

As the devil in that game, I can see that you're horribly butchering the situation that went down there.  The problem with the devil deal was that the town had the wrong targets in mind.  If the town had just suspected Solifuge of being a demon and lynched him then they could well have won on the last day (afterall, the Devil Deal eradicated most of their false leads and the Vampire Lord).

Another difference between this and the devil deal is that this time the town can just choose, by votes, exactly who is going to die, wheras the Devil Deal killed off some random people.  So this is like just having extra lynches, full stop.  No cost.

Beh. I will admit to accidentally butchering the deal. probably because I jut went off of memory of watching.
But this is not no cost, it's cost of daygame and cost of town lives. And the town cannot choose who will die, if any of te killers are mafia like you think there are. I also thought the people chose to take the deal, during the day, not that it was random.

The fact that you're trying to push a massacre N1 with plenty of reasoning against it makes me very suspicious of you Leafsnail.

You've provided no reasoning against it, just a "I DON'T WANT TO WASTE MY KILL" repeated again and again along with one completely invalid analogy, and you seem to have a double standard between lynches and kills that has gone completely unexplained.  Also don't keep FoSing me, just vote me if you suspect me, although maybe you're just being logically consistent and proposing that we shouldn't lynch anyone unless they're absolutely 100% mafia (good luck with that).

[/quote]
Where did this come from? I don't have a kill, never said I did, and never said I wanted to waste my kill. Also, what double standard? I've answered it over and over and I see you haven't listened- the clear difference is that these kills are over in one idiotic charge. With lynches, there's discussion in between kills, results of gameplay between days. I'm fine with deciding via discussion and daygame who is scummy and lynching them. Making a snap decision now and killing three random people has little of such discussion, if any. I only FoSed you once anyway, I'm not Orangebottle like you're thinking I am. Anyway, if you want me to vote you that can be arranged, Leafsnail.

You insult everyone who oesn't agree with your plan by saying they don't know how to play Mafia. Nice to know you're cracking.

[Powder Miner]

Oh, also my name is Powder Miner.
Powder Miner.

[Darvi]

However, Dariush is almost guaranteed to not agree with it. There's no reversing his decision that I'm scum at this point, because I've pissed him off so much(which is why I didn't respond to his last post).

I think even he would be okay with delaying your lynch.

Also, intentionally not replying to posts is two things beginning with S. Can you guess which?

So, you want the kills to target Powder Miner, Ottofar, MBP, and Imiknorris? Because you just called them useless.

Throw in ECF and maybe Dariush and you pretty much nailed it. You'll notice that two of them have been vehemently opposed to using the one-shot nightkills even though there's pretty good reasons to. I can't tell if they're scum or panicky newblets, though, but the latter are a kind of collateral damage that's acceptable, even meant to happen in fact.

Getting lynched as scum isn't only a personal loss, it's a loss for the scum as a whole. They lose my vote, my abilities, my posts, and any opinions I could give on plans they might make. Also, your answer to the second question invalidates your answer to the first; I gain blackmail that serves no purpose, because I'd be found out by the second day.

Uh, no? You being lynched is something that was going to happen anyway, so blackmailing town was pretty much the last saving throw you had. Except maybe proper scumhunting, but you wouldn't want that do you.

Fully claiming before being lynched is scummy? I could've sworn that's why ECrownofFire was lynched a second time in the last BYO. Now I'm confused, thanks.

No, he got lynched because he was doing absolutely nothing on D1 but defending himself. His hiding of a resurrect changed nothing, except for NUKE going "told ya it would be useless".

At any rate, I don't like being lynched, no matter what my alignment. It keeps me from playing the game.

Well maybe you should l2p first then.

I'm not okay with this plan. The scum are definitely going to try and steer the kills into townies. It's too good of a chance not to.

Like, how? "Hey guys, we should totally kill webadict(or any townie who is known for their good play and wouldn't be targeted anyway)!"

I'm talking about lynching people who would be a liability to town regardless of alignment.

that spoiler with a response after seeing it's name. It makes me wish I was a serial killer, so I could kill you at night instead of helping the town.

Oh look you're doing it again.

Oh, also my name is Powder Miner.
Powder Miner.

Whatever you say.

[Jack A T]

I'm not okay with this plan. The scum are definitely going to try and steer the kills into townies. It's too good of a chance not to.

Okay, I'm quickly chiming in right now, before I make a bigger, major post.  Why?  This annoys me enough that I feel like I must respond to it right now.

Orangebottle: But lynching is okay, right?  I'm sure scum doesn't try to steer lynches into townies, ever.  (Yes, I'm being very sarcastic.  Answer the question anyway.)

Now, back to reading walls of text, analyzing walls of text, and planning stuff out.

[Jack A T]

Okay.

As far as I can tell, Leafsnail's plan is to use the one-shot kills as an extension of the lynch today.  We, as a group, figure out who to kill, OB uses his one-shot to make sure that everything is used correctly, and a few people use their actions on whoever they want to confirm that OB is telling the truth about his one-shot tomorrow.

I'm somewhat okay with this.  This has been a very productive day and the use of one-shot kills right now prevents scum from using them as LYLO breakers.  And, of course, this plan effectively gives us more lynches before LYLO.  However, I don't really like the rush to kill people with only D1 information.

An extra idea: if we do use all the one-shot kills today, how about we set up two night plans?  One for our lynch target being scum, and one for him not being scum?

Unvote Orangebottle.  He's probably scum, but his claimed one-shot is useful enough and confirmable enough that it's worthwhile to leave him for tomorrow.

-Scum blocks/delays the doctor and bodyguard, then kills me.

OB: And then I announce the name of the person who blocked me.  Yay!

Powder Miner: There is no plan that involves killing three random people.  There is a plan that involves killing three people that we, as a group, decide on during the day based on scumminess during the day, but that's not killing random people.

[Jack A T]

An extra idea: if we do use all the one-shot kills today, how about we set up two night plans?  One for our lynch target being scum, and one for him not being scum?

Thought about this more.  This isn't a great idea.  Too easy for our lynchee to mess around with if scum, and somewhat chainlynchey.  Also, I can't see resulting discussions/arguments working well at all.

[ECrownofFire]

I don't like this plan. It's far too risky that we hit all scum. Reminds me of a chain-lynch too much.

How about we just split the kills over tonight and N2? Much less of a chance for fucking everything up that way and going directly into MYLO.

And Jack A T, what the fuck are you saying? We shouldn't lynch OB even though he's probably scum? A useful ability is not useful if scum has it.

[Orangebottle]

Orangebottle: But lynching is okay, right?  I'm sure scum doesn't try to steer lynches into townies, ever.  (Yes, I'm being very sarcastic.  Answer the question anyway.)

Yes, but lynches don't occur four at a time.

OB: And then I announce the name of the person who blocked me.  Yay!

Didn't even notice that. Goddamnit brain.

Powder Miner: There is no plan that involves killing three random people.  There is a plan that involves killing three people that we, as a group, decide on during the day based on scumminess during the day, but that's not killing random people.

You're the only one who's saying that it's solely based on scumminess. Darvi and Leafsnail want it to be based on uselessness as well.

Also, intentionally not replying to posts is two things beginning with S.[ abbr=It's stupid and scummy]Can you guess which?[/abbr]

Hmmm...
Silly and spectacular?
:U

Uh, no? You being lynched is something that was going to happen anyway, so blackmailing town was pretty much the last saving throw you had. Except maybe proper scumhunting, but you wouldn't want that do you.

I've been trying. My attempts have been nothing short of abysmal.
I'll just try harder.

No, he got lynched because he was doing absolutely nothing on D1 but defending himself. His hiding of a resurrect changed nothing, except for NUKE going "told ya it would be useless".

I always fullclaim before being lynched, regardless of how scummy it is.

Well maybe you should l2p first then.

And how do you suggest I do that? I won't be accepted in a beginner's game.
Either that, or I'll become the Beginner's Webadict, to teach scum who their first NK target should be.

Like, how? "Hey guys, we should totally kill webadict(or any townie who is known for their good play and wouldn't be targeted anyway)!"

Exactly how they do with lynches?

Oh look you're doing it again.

I love how you say that I'm scummier for it, but don't say that Leafsnail is, considering he just said he wouldn't acknowledge neither mine nor Powder Miner's posts.
Also, I read PM's post, and he makes a valid point. A major difference between this plan and actually taking the time to lynch these people is that we have less information from killing them.

I don't like this plan. It's far too risky that we hit all scum. Reminds me of a chain-lynch too much.

How about we just split the kills over tonight and N2? Much less of a chance for fucking everything up that way and going directly into MYLO.

And Jack A T, what the fuck are you saying? We shouldn't lynch OB even though he's probably scum? A useful ability is not useful if scum has it.

Interesting.
What made you choose Jack over Leafsnail and Darvi, who are both proposing the exact same thing?

[Darvi]

And Jack A T, what the fuck are you saying? We shouldn't lynch OB even though he's probably scum? A useful ability is not useful if scum has it.

Way to not pay attention fucknuts.

[Powder Miner]

Powder Miner: There is no plan that involves killing three random people.  There is a plan that involves killing three people that we, as a group, decide on during the day based on scumminess during the day, but that's not killing random people.

With our current information it might as well be random. And it looks like Leafsnail's definition of scummy/useless appears to be everyone who disagrees with him.

[Darvi]

With our current information it might as well be random.

Okay guys, pack in, you heard the man then there's nothing we can do about it then.

And it looks like Leafsnail's definition of scummy/useless appears to be everyone who disagrees with him.

Quote or it didn't happen.