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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 752287 times)

Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1530 on: February 03, 2012, 08:33:46 pm »

Greatjustice:
1: DOMA also forbids the federal government from providing marriage benefits to its employees, serving or retired veterans, for tax and all other purposes, etc, even if they are legally married in a state that allows same sex marriages.

Section motherfucking 3:
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In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the word 'marriage' means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and the word 'spouse' refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife.

2: The source for Ron Paul's legislative attempt to repeal the supreme courts ability to rule state laws unconstitutional? Its the god damn WE THE PEOPLE act that i have linked on page 5 of this thread. http://www.independentamericanparty.org/2011/09/1949/

I'll leave the rest to others to dismantle.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1531 on: February 03, 2012, 09:19:59 pm »

Like how your constitution explicitly says it should be? You also ignore that there are any number of things that prevent state governments from going too far, most of which don't do a damn thing when your federal government oversteps its boundaries.
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Er, Ron Paul wants to dismantle the things that "prevent state governments from going too far". Actively. I've named one.

The constitution and the right to vote? The first restrains the state governments in a way that the federal government is good at ignoring (if the likes of SOPA, ACTA and the PATRIOT act among others are anything to go by), and the second limits it further to being responsible to those it controls. Frankly, if the result of state governments having more power than the federal government was state governments engaging in clownery, then I find it unlikely that the average American will somehow make the federal government much better.
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Also: Ron Paul wants to override anything the constitution says about state law (regarding certain subjects). Let me put it this way: The only way the constitutionality of legislation can be maintained is through the courts stepping in and saying when something isn't constitutional. Ron Paul wants to remove that protection.

Source, please.

I already gave you the source for all of this. It's the "We the People Act". Could you at least try here?

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Really? Then why don't you attack him on his issues or his actual problems, rather than digging up extremely suspect "evidence" and primarily sticking to attacking him personally?

I have. You ignore it, and continue to ask for "sources" that I've already given.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1532 on: February 03, 2012, 10:05:10 pm »

It would be so nice if we could directly elect executive cabinet members, that way you could vote for the treasury head based upon his monetary policy, state based on foreign policy, AG based on crime stance...
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1533 on: February 04, 2012, 12:14:44 am »

Oh my. This deserves a long talk, but I think its worth mentioning that a "robust recovery" and "strong economy" have been pumped ever since 2001 with Krugman advocating the creation of a housing bubble to boost spending. The economy's fundamentals are terrible: a very large amount of money has been printed (digitally, mind), but it sitting in banks because they aren't willing to lend yet; Europe, Japan, and China are all rapidly running into problems; foreign oil is threatened by a war in the Gulf, etc etc

You and I apparently live in entirely different universes.
Krugman in fact warned about a housing bubble as it was forming:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/opinion/08krugman.html
And you are taking him massively out of context when he deliberately said that the Fed should not create a housing bubble:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-dip.html?pagewanted=1

And then you engage in the typical behavior of anyone who wants to attack the mainstream: throw a bunch of scary stuff against the wall without explanation and count on some of it to stick because people have genuinely no clue what you are saying.

The irony of the fact that you would portray Krugman's statements as being the diametric opposite of what they were yet claim that your chosen candidate is lied about and maligned isn't lost on me.

On the contrary, if you actually read the article, Krugman follows up the "create a housing bubble statement" with:
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Judging by Mr. Greenspan's remarkably cheerful recent testimony, he still thinks he can pull that off. But the Fed chairman's crystal ball has been cloudy lately; remember how he urged Congress to cut taxes to head off the risk of excessive budget surpluses? And a sober look at recent data is not encouraging.

That isn't "Ha ha, what an idiot, trying to create a bubble", that's "He thinks he can, but he's not succeeding".

Krugman has a very long list of stupid things said, which is ironic since he talks about outside of his columns regarding free trade, etc are actually not that bad. Anyhow, here's a small list of him advocating things that led to the crash:

http://www.pkarchive.org/global/welt.html
http://www.pkarchive.org/column/5201.html
http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ML082201.html

Fun quotes (Please don't insist that Krugman has a long history of drily supporting the creation of bubbles and providing arguments in the favour ironically, these aren't out of context as the sources show):

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“KRUGMAN: I think frankly it’s got to be — business investment is not going to be the driving force in this recovery. It has to come from things like housing, things that have not been (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

DOBBS: We see, Paul, housing at near record levels, we see automobile purchases near record levels. The consumer is still very much in this economy. Can he or she — or I should say he and she, can they bring back this economy?

KRUGMAN: Well, as far as the arithmetic goes, yes, it is possible. Will the Fed cut interest rates enough? Will long-term rates fall enough to get the consumer, get the housing sector there in time? We don’t know”
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“During phases of weak growth there are always those who say that lower interest rates will not help. They overlook the fact that low interest rates act through several channels. For instance, more housing is built, which expands the building sector. You must ask the opposite question: why in the world shouldn’t you lower interest rates?”
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“Post-terror nerves aside, what mainly ails the U.S. economy is too much of a good thing. During the bubble years businesses overspent on capital equipment; the resulting overhang of excess capacity is a drag on investment, and hence a drag on the economy as a whole.

In time this overhang will be worked off. Meanwhile, economic policy should encourage other spending to offset the temporary slump in business investment. Low interest rates, which promote spending on housing and other durable goods, are the main answer. But it seems inevitable that there will also be a fiscal stimulus package”

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Greatjustice:
1: DOMA also forbids the federal government from providing marriage benefits to its employees, serving or retired veterans, for tax and all other purposes, etc, even if they are legally married in a state that allows same sex marriages.

Section motherfucking 3:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-groshoff/ron-paul-homophobic_b_1171695.html

Ahem:
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While Ron Paul stated that he supports DOMA, DOMA is a complex law. Evidencing DOMA's complexity is the pro-queer legal community's general strategy of attacking DOMA Section 3, not DOMA's entirety.

Because I could find nothing in which Paul specifically addressed DOMA Section 3 rather than DOMA in its entirety (including legislative history, as Paul wasn't a member of Congress during the DOMA vote), I requested comment from the Paul campaign on short notice. I did not receive a response prior to submitting this piece. (I'll include an update should I receive a response.)

My guess is that if specifically asked regarding support for DOMA Section 3, Paul would answer no. My further suspicion is that since he supports most of DOMA, Paul can justify saying that he supports DOMA, enabling him to pander to the party primary base.

Even if Paul supports DOMA entirely, President Clinton signed all of DOMA into law, despite being hailed as possibly having "courted the gay vote" more than any other prior candidate. President Clinton's campaign messages didn't equate with his "voting" as president.

So (A) One particular part is a problem but the rest isn't, making it justifiable to a point (I recall Paul saying he objected to small details of the CRAs, but still would have supported them with reservations due to the rest being fine) and (B) If you're going to lambast Paul for it, you're going to have to lambast the senate, the house, and President Clinton as being equally racist/homophobic/etc. If you are willing to admit that Clinton is a racist and homophobe and should be called out for it, then I'll give up right here and now. Otherwise, you're using double standards and shame on you.
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2: The source for Ron Paul's legislative attempt to repeal the supreme courts ability to rule state laws unconstitutional? Its the god damn WE THE PEOPLE act that i have linked on page 5 of this thread. http://www.independentamericanparty.org/2011/09/1949/

Which limits the courts by link to the tenth amendment, not literally striking down all of their power (seeing as how that is probably the biggest thing they do, that would be more or less the same as simple abolition of the courts).

It also limits them in a handful of specified ways, not "THE COURTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERVENE". Most of them (privacy, etc) are things that are already covered by constitutional limits (the 4th, the 5th, etc etc) that the federal government (thanks to the SC might I add) is far more willing to bend. Even the "establishment of a religion" clause isn't especially powerful; again, the constitution overrides state laws, so either it would literally be an altogether symbolic thing or it would be unconstitutional under the first amendment, among others. Next.

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I already gave you the source for all of this. It's the "We the People Act". Could you at least try here?

Finished, see above. The constitution overrides state laws, and this doesn't change that in the slightest (it doesn't even damage the power of the SC in any major terms).

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I have. You ignore it, and continue to ask for "sources" that I've already given.

I make an effort to find every statement and cover it in some regard. If I haven't, its probably because I haven't seen it.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1534 on: February 04, 2012, 12:38:32 am »

Section 3 of DOMA is attacked because it is the worst part of the law, because it directly interferes in the rights and privileges of gay people and removes from states the ability to fully recognize these liberties.

You need to explain how you come to that conclusion about the We the people act, because its actual text does exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.

It completely prohibits the court from ruling on the constitutionality of those laws and directly removes the only method to challenge the constitutionality of those laws. If the laws are unconstitutional, this law removes the ability for those laws to be struck down. It is extremely explicitly clear that the sole purpose if this law is to allow states to pass unconstitutional laws without recourse for contest.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1535 on: February 04, 2012, 01:54:56 am »

It also limits them in a handful of specified ways, not "THE COURTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERVENE". Most of them (privacy, etc) are things that are already covered by constitutional limits (the 4th, the 5th, etc etc) that the federal government (thanks to the SC might I add) is far more willing to bend. Even the "establishment of a religion" clause isn't especially powerful; again, the constitution overrides state laws, so either it would literally be an altogether symbolic thing or it would be unconstitutional under the first amendment, among others. Next.

It doesn't matter if a law is unconstitutional if the courts can't rule on it. The We the People Act explicitly denies federal courts (including the Supreme Court) from ruling on laws concerning those issues, meaning if a state wants a law that is flagrantly unconstitutional, it can get away with enforcing it. What part of this don't you understand? Yes, the constitution overrides state law, but that doesn't make a damn bit of different if nobody can actually enforce the constitution. Literally the only way for the constitution to override state law is for court to rule that those laws violate the constitution, and Ron Paul's legislation explicitly denies them that ability. I'm sorry if I'm being combative here, but it's like you're being obtuse for no reason about this.

This is not hard to understand. The Constitution overrides state law. This only makes a damn bit of difference if the courts can actually uphold the constitution. Ron Paul's legislation explicitly tells them they can't.

See: Anti-sodomy state laws prior to 2003. In 2003, they were struck down by SCOTUS. If SCOTUS couldn't or wouldn't have done that, as would be the case under Ron Paul's legislation, those laws would still be enforceable. Those federal courts are literally the only thing capable of telling the states that their unconstitutional laws cannot be enforced or maintained, and Ron Paul's legislation very, very, very explicitly tells them that they can't rule on the constitutionality of state law.

Basically, this is like if someone passed an ordinance saying "the justice department can no longer prosecute cases of fraud, nor can such cases be heard in civil court", and you replying by saying "but fraud is still a crime!". No, effectively it wouldn't be.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 01:59:01 am by G-Flex »
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1536 on: February 04, 2012, 03:09:07 am »

Obama won the previous election and he is essentially a socialist in comparison. How can the merican people jump from what is essentially a socialist into a religious right wing nutbag.
I don't get you guys.
Bolded the relevant part here. Obama isn't really much of a socialist. If he were, I'd be trying to get him re-elected like crazy. The race is almost certainly going to be between a moderate Obama and a waffling-but-occasionally-arch-conservative Romney.
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jester

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1537 on: February 04, 2012, 04:08:25 am »

Yeah, if you look at the rest of the world, obama is about as socalist as a dead cat.  In about 90% of democratic countries he would be firmly right wing.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1538 on: February 04, 2012, 06:21:37 am »

I think it's time for a Ron Paul thread. That argument is basically a derailment now.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1539 on: February 04, 2012, 07:29:13 am »

Obama won the previous election and he is essentially a socialist in comparison. How can the merican people jump from what is essentially a socialist into a religious right wing nutbag.
I don't get you guys.
Bolded the relevant part here. Obama isn't really much of a socialist. If he were, I'd be trying to get him re-elected like crazy. The race is almost certainly going to be between a moderate Obama and a waffling-but-occasionally-arch-conservative Romney.

I meant in comparison to the competition, in the UK he would not be considered anything like a solocialist at all  :P
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1540 on: February 04, 2012, 01:54:30 pm »

To summarize the critique of Krugman:

One should never hope for an economic recovery because if the economy recovers it might go down again afterwards.

It would be cute that the Paulites have such a basic lack of a grasp of economics were it not so disturbing.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1541 on: February 04, 2012, 03:47:53 pm »

Quote
It completely prohibits the court from ruling on the constitutionality of those laws and directly removes the only method to challenge the constitutionality of those laws. If the laws are unconstitutional, this law removes the ability for those laws to be struck down. It is extremely explicitly clear that the sole purpose if this law is to allow states to pass unconstitutional laws without recourse for contest.

Show me a state constitution that doesn't prevent a state government from instituting an official religion. That's hardly a realistic fear, and furthermore the SC, by definition, only has jurisdiction in federal matters, of which marriage, religion, and abortion are not. Were the states to actually violate the BoRs, then they would be prosecuted based on their actual violations, not on their perceived violations (in other words, abortion would be entirely left to the states, so a very liberal SC couldn't decree that Louisiana could be prosecuted for banning abortion and an arch-conservative SC couldn't prosecute Oregon for allowing abortion, but overstepping the boundaries by, say, preventing discussion of abortion would violate the 1st and would be an entirely different issue).

This bill is mostly for the purpose of preventing the SC from creating "rights" out of thin air on issues that the Federal government has little ground on. Abortion, for example, isn't mentioned anywhere in the constitution, so by the 10th it goes to the states. If the federal govt wants to cover it, it has to pass a constitutional amendment to go with it (and good luck with passing an amendment on abortion).


Quote
It doesn't matter if a law is unconstitutional if the courts can't rule on it. The We the People Act explicitly denies federal courts (including the Supreme Court) from ruling on laws concerning those issues, meaning if a state wants a law that is flagrantly unconstitutional, it can get away with enforcing it. What part of this don't you understand? Yes, the constitution overrides state law, but that doesn't make a damn bit of different if nobody can actually enforce the constitution. Literally the only way for the constitution to override state law is for court to rule that those laws violate the constitution, and Ron Paul's legislation explicitly denies them that ability. I'm sorry if I'm being combative here, but it's like you're being obtuse for no reason about this.

See above. If they ARE violating the constitution, then whether it is related to abortion, marriage, etc is irrelevant since the reasons for prosecution come down to the actual unconstitutional actions, rather than the issues themselves that are left to the states under the 10th. It doesn't prevent the courts from prosecuting 1st amendment violations, it prevents them from prosecuting states for perceived violations of SC-created rights (be it life or abortion). If the states actually did something unconstitutional relating to the issues, the issues themselves wouldn't be the problem so much as the unconstitutional action (and no, no amount of SC claims will somehow add abortion to the list of federally decided issues, it takes an amendment for that).
Quote


See: Anti-sodomy state laws prior to 2003. In 2003, they were struck down by SCOTUS. If SCOTUS couldn't or wouldn't have done that, as would be the case under Ron Paul's legislation, those laws would still be enforceable. Those federal courts are literally the only thing capable of telling the states that their unconstitutional laws cannot be enforced or maintained, and Ron Paul's legislation very, very, very explicitly tells them that they can't rule on the constitutionality of state law.

It has four narrowly defined areas in which the SC has its power limited, and all of which are distinctly unmentioned in the constitution (marriage and privacy). Anti-sodomy laws are indeed stupid, but nominally aren't under federal jurisdiction as there isn't any federally granted right to privacy. There should be, but then it should be passed through congress as allowing the SC to unilaterally create rights is a very slippery slope that could just as easily go in the other direction. Again, if something is prosecutable directly under the BoRs, then the underlying issue (marriage, abortion, etc) is irrelevant to the actual violation.
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To summarize the critique of Krugman:

One should never hope for an economic recovery because if the economy recovers it might go down again afterwards.

It would be cute that the Paulites have such a basic lack of a grasp of economics were it not so disturbing.

It would be cute that the Keynesians have such a lack of basic economic knowledge were it not so disturbing.

Krugman was hoping for a recovery, and he characterized a "recovery" by the grounds of the recreation of an economic bubble.
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Aqizzar

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1542 on: February 04, 2012, 03:49:54 pm »

Alright, that's enough.

All of you take the definition of Ron Paul out of my thread.  Yes, it's about a Presidential candidate, but I'm tired of watching people shout themselves hoarse at walls.  You can do it all you want somewhere where I'm not responsible for breaking you up.


Alright, dammit, there's a part of that argument I can't ignore.

This bill is mostly for the purpose of preventing the SC from creating "rights" out of thin air on issues that the Federal government has little ground on. Abortion, for example, isn't mentioned anywhere in the constitution, so by the 10th it goes to the states. If the federal govt wants to cover it, it has to pass a constitutional amendment to go with it (and good luck with passing an amendment on abortion).

You parenthetically provided the exact reason why a lot of people would consider it a good thing for the Supreme Court to "create rights out of thin air".  You're right, the Constitution does not mention any Federal power over abortion.  So what did the Supreme Court say?  That the Federal government therefore cannot wholesale restrict access to abortion without an amendment, and by the extension power of the 14th amendment (which does exist whether you like it or not), neither can states.

In the history of the Supreme Court, whether for good or ill, when presented with a question of whether a "right" exists they have almost always erred on the side of saying it does until proven otherwise, by further discovery or by an amendment.  In this way, it basically keeps both the Federal government and the states from making up on their own what counts as "Constitutional" or not without actually changing the Constitution, a process which as your example points out, can take decades.

It's a position that holds that it's better that a right be assumed to exist until it's legitimately restricted, rather than saying a right does not exist until enumerated.  And I would think minarchists would appreciate that position.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 04:02:42 pm by Aqizzar »
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1543 on: February 04, 2012, 04:28:42 pm »

Quote
You parenthetically provided the exact reason why a lot of people would consider it a good thing for the Supreme Court to "create rights out of thin air".  You're right, the Constitution does not mention any Federal power over abortion.  So what did the Supreme Court say?  That the Federal government therefore cannot wholesale restrict access to abortion without an amendment, and by the extension power of the 14th amendment (which does exist whether you like it or not), neither can states.

In the history of the Supreme Court, whether for good or ill, when presented with a question of whether a "right" exists they have almost always erred on the side of saying it does until proven otherwise, by further discovery or by an amendment.  In this way, it basically keeps both the Federal government and the states from making up on their own what counts as "Constitutional" or not without actually changing the Constitution, a process which as your example points out, can take decades.

It's a position that holds that it's better that a right be assumed to exist until it's legitimately restricted, rather than saying a right does not exist until enumerated.  And I would think minarchists would appreciate that position.

Slippery slope. The Supreme Court is unelected, and thus isn't bound by many of the same restrictions that the legislative and executive branches are. Those two are bound to have to act slowly and are replaced if they do something silly, with the same applying to their statewide counterparts. The SC is far less accountable, and by all means can change far more things than they are intended to. Once the door is opened on the SC unilaterally making laws, it can just as easily make terrible laws and seriously overstep its boundaries.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #1544 on: February 04, 2012, 04:35:03 pm »

Nevada primer.
Quote
The Republican nominating train is in new terrain: the West. Saturday’s caucus in Nevada will unfold against mountains and deserts, a far different backdrop from the first four states.

But do not be fooled by the scenery. Where elections are concerned, Nevada is an urbanized state. Most Nevadans live in cities, and that holds true for Republicans and for Republican caucusgoers. In the state’s 2008 Republican caucus, exit polls found just over half of voters were from urban communities, and another quarter was from the suburbs.
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The dire economy may help explain the fractured support of Nevada’s Tea Party, which has been one of the more active Tea Party groups in the country, but cannot seem to agree on a standard-bearer in the presidential campaign. Rick Santorum won the endorsement of Sharron Angle, a senatorial candidate backed by the Tea Party, but it might be too little too late. A poll commissioned by the Las Vegas Review-Journal found Tea Party support was split, with 37 percent going to Newt Gingrich, 27 percent to Mr. Romney and 20 to Mr. Santorum.

Another important voting bloc, as has been widely noted, are Mormons. Twenty-six percent of 2008 Republican caucusgoers were Mormon, and Mr. Romney won 95 percent of their votes. Mr. Paul, however, has been trying to make inroads into that support. His focus on the Constitution is a natural fit for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which considers the document to be divinely inspired. And Mormonism has a history of conflict with the federal government.

In 2008, there was also a substantial share of caucusgoers — 8 percent — who were Hispanic. While a majority of Florida’s Hispanics are of Cuban descent, Nevada’s Hispanics are mostly of Mexican origin. Mr. Gingrich and Mr. Paul have reportedly courted this group’s support more than Mr. Romney and Mr. Santorum.
Should make for some interesting reading. And viewing if anyone lets Sharron Angle near a TV camera.

538 vote projections.

On the less factual side of things there have been some polls and rumours that make for fun speculation. One poll shows Santorum beating Obama in the general (lol). Now this is a Rasmussen poll and they have had horrible problems in the past, and this seems to mostly be people remaining mostly ignorant about Santorum given his (very) brief time in the spotlight, but for a few days it makes him the most electable candidate. He might be able to ride that out of a bad beat in Nevada.

Meanwhile Newt is holding a press conference immediately after the results come in. Not a speech, a press conference. Some have take this to mean he might drop out.

Combine these two and you have a fantasy situation where Newt throws his weight behind Santorum and the two run hard against Romney. At least one punter got some money down on a Santorum presidency today. I'd have taken the 140/1 as a value bet, but 66/1 sounds a bit generous to Santorums general electability. That said, today I'd take those as the odds for him getting the Republican nod.
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