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Author Topic: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?  (Read 17418 times)

scriver

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2011, 03:42:00 pm »

Except you aren't taking their electronic data either. It's still there. If its still there, how exactly are you "taking it"?

And what if, as is commonly the case, you are making a copy of someone else's copy? Who are you stealing from, and how, since that company never possessed the data you're copying?

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Not property, but money which they charge you for theit services
Ah, so buying a competitors product is theft as well, then?

It's simple. Somebody X offers a service, in this case music. It costs him money to make and provide that service, and he wants reimbursement when you use his services. By not paying for it, you are depriving him of that money. That is why I call it "stealing" and "theft". If somebody else provides the music, you are not using the X's services and is stealing nothing. If you copy X's work from a friend, you are still depriving X of money for the use of his services.

I consider going to a concert and taking a train/bus without paying for a ticket stealing from the band/corporation as well, even if they would still be playing/going regardless if you were on them.

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Copyright infringement is just a specialised word for the means of the theft, like robbery or pick-pocketing.
Do you have any actual support for that? Any at all?

No, except that it is how the language works. I don't have any proof pick-pocketing is a specialised word for theft either, so what does it matter? As it has been brought up, it's the same with legal definitions. One can't argue something isn't theft because it isn't "legally" theft - legally speaking, murder does not include slaughtering people. Similarly with dictionary definitions - dictionaries exist to provide a short and easy to understand explanation of what a word means, it is not the definite declaration of that word, and it certainly doesn't contain all the nuances and depth a word actually carries with it.


But who is losing out of someone who can't afford or perhaps even buy a game in their region pirates it? I say everyone gains through piracy in these situations: the player gets to play and the IP owners get a wider audience.
What if there's no other way to get something in any way other than piracy (at a reasonable price that is. No way somebody's gonna pay fifty bucks or so just for importing something from over the ocean)?

There are always circumstances which makes even the most immoral act less immoral (and piracy isn't very far down the immorality scale to anyone, I'd think, certainly not to me). "Not wanting to pay" is not one of them as much as "not capable of paying", but very few people are so poor they can't save up enough money over time (not to mention that most things go down fairly much in price over time as well). There is no reason to pirate a game just after it is released, for example, if you can afford it in a year, or at one of Steam's sales. That's just greedy.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2011, 03:48:30 pm »

So words have no agreed-upon meaning and can be used for anything tangentially related to the connections formed by each individuals brain as opposed to their social meanings given by the masses that speak that language? Well baby towel pig stain table! =P
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 03:53:54 pm by MorleyDev »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2011, 03:52:51 pm »

Trueans description of events is what copyright laws were built to prevent, freeformschooler. They weren't really intended to prevent the sort of stuff we see on the internet today, but to insure the original author has a chance to get credit for their work and sell it to the masses before a bigger existing publisher scoops it up and publishes it themselves.

That actually still happens today, too, and while their are flaws with copyright implementation, it does a lot to help people in that situation (if they can afford the legal fees).

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It's simple. Somebody X offers a service, in this case music. It costs him money to make and provide that service, and he wants reimbursement when you use his services. By not paying for it, you are depriving him of that money. That is why I call it "stealing" and "theft". If somebody else provides the music, you are not using the X's services and is stealing nothing. If you copy X's work from a friend, you are still depriving X of money for the use of his services.
You can not deprive someone of something they never had. You are not depriving anyone of money in this situation. You are depriving them of the opportunity of money, but again - releasing a competing product does the exact same thing. Why is one theft, but not the other. Isn't releasing a superior product theft of the money they would have made selling their inferior one? Since you are actually gaining the money instead, it seems like it would be an even more apt use of the word theft by your definition.

Fuck, I don't even mind if you use your own definitions for words (though you might want to make a concession that it will be different from the common use AND legal use), but at least come up with something consistant rather than using it as an excuse to make copyright infringement seem worse than it is through conflation.
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freeformschooler

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2011, 03:54:28 pm »

Trueans description of events is what copyright laws were built to prevent, freeformschooler. They weren't really intended to prevent the sort of stuff we see on the internet today, but to insure the original author has a chance to get credit for their work and sell it to the masses before a bigger existing publisher scoops it up and publishes it themselves.

Ah, makes sense. Truean, just so you know I'm going for a record on how many times I can misinterpret you! Watch out.
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Truean

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2011, 03:58:30 pm »

Well, it says "Copyright Infringement," so, yeah I thought a novel worked. Also, it does work because you can get digital copies of books. There are systems specifically for that like Kindle and Nook and I'm sure Smart Phones either get digital copies of books or will....

Lets even remove the "individual pirate" from things. Let's say 200 people pirate that book, which was $10 a copy. Now you're talking $2000. Every 0 you add is a factor of 10.... Now let's say for whatever reason that the book costs $5.... Same deal, law of large numbers, it matters. Who cares if the "pirates are getting rich," or not. The point is someone else isn't.

There's a reason for the term "starving artist."

It isn't easy coming up with GOOD creative content. You try it.... Meanwhile I keep hearing people say "O you'll starve with an English Degree...." My degree isn't in English, but I know a lot of writers who do have one. Same thing with a hit song. Go on, get a blank piece of paper or a blank word document and just belt one out. Now belt out 10 more for an album. Easy, isn't it? that doesn't take into account all the support people like editors and technicians.

My standard response to people who think other people's jobs are easy is "you should be forced to do their job for a week and see if you can even keep up." It only looks easy cause you aren't doing it.

Trueans description of events is what copyright laws were built to prevent, freeformschooler. They weren't really intended to prevent the sort of stuff we see on the internet today, but to insure the original author has a chance to get credit for their work and sell it to the masses before a bigger existing publisher scoops it up and publishes it themselves.

Ah, makes sense. Truean, just so you know I'm going for a record on how many times I can misinterpret you! Watch out.

It's cool, I get that all the time. Gryph is correct in that being the classic interpretation of things as very valid and yes it does happen. I also think it can be applied to the current model to some degree, even though yes, the record companies overdid it....
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2011, 04:00:44 pm »

Note that that sort of copyright infringement is still pretty popular in much of the world and makes people a ton of money.

It is good to bring it up in conversations that advocate getting rid of copyright entirely - there are some great things it does for society.

However, Truean, I'm not entirely sure it's relevant to this conversation - no one, so far, has argued copyright isn't /wrong/, simply that it isn't "theft". Do you agree with that, at least?
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Nadaka

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2011, 04:02:28 pm »

MetalSlimeHunt even though I disagree that it's theft I can see the similarities in how pirating something deprives the IP holder of money the pirate would have spent if they'd not pirated it. Would you still say it's theft if the pirate would never have bought a copy in the first place?

That is the god damned definition of a fucking right. You are born with it. You have it. It is yours. And it can only be removed by force. And the threat of force very much can infringe on your free expression of your rights. Any attempt at casting rights in any other light is an attempt to corrupt language and intentionally prevent people from even knowing what rights are, so that they won't understand when they are being infringed.
Some rights can be voluntarily be given up. I work with people who have signed a waiver so that they can work more hours than the legally set maximum.

And the right to copy is not a right that many have intentionally and knowing signed a waiver for, and with the laws as they exist now, they are not compensated for it either.

That is the god damned definition of a fucking right. You are born with it. You have it. It is yours. And it can only be removed by force. And the threat of force very much can infringe on your free expression of your rights. Any attempt at casting rights in any other light is an attempt to corrupt language and intentionally prevent people from even knowing what rights are, so that they won't understand when they are being infringed.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. What do you mean when you say ‘right’? There are legal rights, such activities as the law permits, and I assume use of the word ‘right’ in any other context would mean any such things as one feels one should not be obstructed from doing. That would mean that they can not be stolen, but one can feel that one has been prevented from doing something that one should not be prevented from doing.

If you were speaking more metaphorically than I thought, or I otherwise misundertood, I apologize.

Things you should be allowed to do because you can do so without infringing on the rights of anyone else (with the caveat that you can defend yourself). The right to free speech. The right to bear arms. The right to love someone, and for them to love you. And yes, the right to copy is among these innumerable natural rights. The right to profit is not. The right to restrict copy is not.

When I say that copyright law is theft, I am not talking about the restriction of rights directly. Rather the effect of that restriction. Culture is effectively the shared collective experience of our societies history and art. Art belongs to everyone. When copyright limits its flow into society, and in the long run works to remove the record of past art from history, that art is effectively stolen from us all. And while they may see fit to ransom it to us for now, in time it can cause and has caused art to erased from the culture of future generations.

Imagine you actually sat down and really thought out a novel. It was decent and not some hack product from chopping up old books and gluing them together. Then imagine you spent a year writing that novel. You churned out 1000 pages and left room of possible sequels as a series. You gave up a lot to create it and publish it. Then someone else takes it and publishes it without so much as acknowledging you at all. They get rich off your labors, not appreciating or acknowledging any of them. People love your work, but don't even know you did it. You die in obscurity, quite broke. Fair?

And that is why the original US copyright was acceptable with its term of 14 years and a focus on commercial infringement. Right now there are copyright organizations that have crafted laws that are already in effect allowing them to take away the rights of original authors and granting those organizations exclusive right to profit off the artists work without the knowledge, consent or reimbursement of the original artist.
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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2011, 04:12:39 pm »

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Right now there are copyright organizations that have crafted laws that are already in effect allowing them to take away the rights of original authors and granting those organizations exclusive right to profit off the artists work without the knowledge, consent or reimbursement of the original artist.

This is something I feel is a problem, truth be told. I don't think you should ever be able to "lost" copyright - it should be non-transferable. You should be able to license that copyright to others, granting rights up to your own, but it should not be possible for a person to "lose" the copyright to something they've created. The very concept of it seems dirty to me - like selling someone your right to free speech.

I'd support said right overriding any contracts to the contrary, as well. As in, I would like to see any clause that says "you will sell us this copyright" be unenforceable, as well as any that say "you will license this copyright to us but can't do so to anyone else." Nothing should be able to remove the original creator/owners copyright, or their right to license such.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2011, 04:20:33 pm »

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.

Lets even remove the "individual pirate" from things. Let's say 200 people pirate that book, which was $10 a copy. Now you're talking $2000. Every 0 you add is a factor of 10.... Now let's say for whatever reason that the book costs $5.... Same deal, law of large numbers, it matters. Who cares if the "pirates are getting rich," or not. The point is someone else isn't.
This presumes that a significant ammount of the copies equal to lost sales. Which isn't necessarily true.
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G-Flex

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2011, 04:23:11 pm »

Quote
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Lets even remove the "individual pirate" from things. Let's say 200 people pirate that book, which was $10 a copy. Now you're talking $2000. Every 0 you add is a factor of 10.... Now let's say for whatever reason that the book costs $5.... Same deal, law of large numbers, it matters. Who cares if the "pirates are getting rich," or not. The point is someone else isn't.
This presumes that a significant ammount of the copies equal to lost sales. Which isn't necessarily true.

Correct. Some of those people wouldn't have purchased it anyway, or might have purchased a competing product instead.

Also: If you pirate a movie/game/book/album, that doesn't mean you remove all support you're giving to the author/artist. You're still becoming a fan, you still enjoy it, you still talk about it with friends/share it with people, and generate buzz about it. That's very valuable, and companies and artists have realized that.
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Truean

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2011, 04:31:23 pm »

However, Truean, I'm not entirely sure it's relevant to this conversation - no one, so far, has argued copyright isn't /wrong/, simply that it isn't "theft". Do you agree with that, at least?

Don't know. It depends on the type. Perhaps an analysis is in order?
It's not an entirely unreasonable conclusion to reach either way. Further, it depends upon what flavor of copyright infringement we're talking about. I think we might come to some agreement about clearer things and less agreement on murky things. My first classic example of the novelist is probably theft. That example has someone stealing their book.

Perhaps I should make the case for and against the more modern "digital type," being theft.

Case for it being theft:
There are three theories why modern "digital piracy" should be considered theft. First, the lost sale/ volume seller case. Second, unjust enrichment. Third, the creative works and production argument.

Imagine if you will a car lot where cars are sold. The car lot owner has a great many cars and can effectively order as many from the car factory as he wishes as long as he can afford it. Now please consider a customer who starts to purchase a car but then backs out once the contract is done. The dealer got the car back, let's even say with no depreciation on the car, which dealer keeps. Say the dealer later sells the car. Sounds like no harm no foul right?

The dealer may still sue for the profit of the car he would've sold and probably win. This is because of the dealer has "lost a sale." Due to the dealer having an effectively unlimited inventory (or ability to replace via order) the argument goes that if not for the technical breach of contract, the dealer would have made two sales instead of one. The dealer would've sold the car from the breached contract sale and the other customer would've bought a different car, because the dealer would've ordered. Thus dealer has lost a sale.

Simply replace "car" with "song." Due to the digitial ability to copy, the seller/dealer has an effectively unlimited inventory, much like the car dealer, better even. He can make the argument that he has "lost a sale."

Further, there is the legal notion of "Unjust Enrichment." I'll skip the technicalities in the interest of not boring you all to tears, but basically it goes something like this. It is a general equitable principle that a person should not profit at another's expense and therefore should make restitution for the reasonable value of any property, services, or other benefits that have been unfairly received and retained. One can argue that digital content is not free to imagine, create, produce and place into a digital format. Thus, due to these expenses and the enjoyment of said product created by these unreimbursed expenses, the person receiving the final pirated product is unjustly enriched at the artist and production staff's expense.

Moreover, consider the creative works and production arguments. These are the fruits of someone's labor and to simply pay nothing for it, nothing at all, is wrong. They have wrought this thing you want with their time and energy, as well as money. They get not a penny for it. Really? Imagine the years it took to hone all that talent and it's worth exactly.... nothing to people.... Doesn't sound quite right does it? Nothing?

Case for it not being theft:
There are four theories why modern "digital piracy" should not be considered theft. First, the lack of a physical deprivation. Second, changing technology. Third, the unreasonable cost. Fourth, the haves and have nots.

One of many traditional notions of theft is that you have deprived the person of an object, right or other possession. Here, one could argue no physical deprivation takes place because the seller has not been deprived or a concrete thing. What piracy does in essence is create a copy and leave the original in tact. The original owner has not had anything "taken" from them and they had what they had before.

Further, this is the way our technology is evolving. Soon, we shall not trade in physical objects like CDs or Tapes. Rather we shall trade in content for musical, movie and creative content.

Moreover, consider the unreasonable cost especially in light of the second point (immediately above). The cost of production is going down greatly and $20 for a CD that cost $3 to make is an insane profit on the order of gouging the crap out of consumers for nothing more than greed.

Finally, consider the fact that there are people who simply cannot pay for it. There are the "haves" who can pay, and the "have nots" who cannot. No matter what you do, no matter what you say the, "have nots," simply can't pay for this product. The additional cost of creating another unit of production is so negligible as to be nothing. The act of copying said file and sharing the musical content is so de minimus, especially compared to the enjoyment that person otherwise could not have, that it doesn't make sense not to provide it. So long as we live in a world of "haves" and "have nots" why should the have nots not have when provision is so easy?
________________________________________________________________________

See how its way more complex than "it is" or "it isn't," theft. On the "theft side" I find the lost volume seller argument quite persuasive. On the "not theft" side, I find the "haves v. have nots," arguments persuasive. You can't lose a sale that could never have taken place, though good luck distinguishing the true "haves" from the true "have nots."
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2011, 04:36:53 pm »

Wait, wait a minute - is the contract for the car violation really considered theft?

I mean, I knew about it, but I thought that was just "damages due to contract violation". I didn't think it was legally theft.

o_o

Well, consider my approach muddied. I wouldn't consider that theft, myself (wrong, yes, potentially responsible for the lost profits, perhaps, but theft, no), but if it's actually in the lawbook as theft that makes it significantly harder to disagree with.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2011, 04:37:23 pm »

I think it's legally a breach of contract. Likewise, copyright law is essentially saying if you don't buy the license, you're effectively breaking the contract that you signed by being in the country of the government that imposed that contract. Same concept, except everybody is assumed to have signed the contract. You don't own the intellectual property held in the book, CD, DVD, VHS, MP3 whatever that you purchased, you own a license to use that intellectual property.

Yes Piracy takes money the person could of earned. Yes, this is a bad thing for that person. Not every bad thing is theft though. The point most people are trying to make is it is not theft, not that it is moral.

Personally I think piracy will happen, has since it became possible to copy one thing in it's totality. Pirated books weren't uncommon, and think of all those people who pirated Vinyl and VHS tapes by buying cheaper copies from the street vendors, and think of all the modded PS1s out there running pirated games bought from street vendors! But, the real question and insight comes from what stopped a lot of people from going to them: Often those copied books, CDs, VHS, Games, DVDs etc were of lower quality, and you usually had less guarantees if it broke and a higher chance of it breaking. Couldn't take the CD or Game back to the street vendor if you took it home and it didn't play, no reciepts.

That's my main point about piracy: The only way to stop it is to provide a better service than the pirates.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 04:43:05 pm by MorleyDev »
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Orangebottle

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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2011, 04:38:55 pm »

You are stealing the money the company would've made had you not pirated the game.
/thread
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Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2011, 04:40:28 pm »

How, exactly, does that end the thread?

Especially since the concept of stealing something you already possess (your money) based solely on not giving it to the other party is pretty ludicrous.

Oh wait, you said /thread because you didn't actually read it, right?
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