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[Scoops Novel]

What would you like players to gain by the end of the game? You've got cryptography, detailed renaissance style history, i feel we could easily come away with something useful if you're so inclined.

Also, thought you'd like this: it will be a series discussing the role of academia in games amongst other things. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/13/electric-dreams-part-1-the-lost-future-of-ai/#more-270717

[Retropunch]

What would you like players to gain by the end of the game? You've got cryptography, detailed renaissance style history, i feel we could easily come away with something useful if you're so inclined.

That's actually a really good idea - with a world this detailed, you could actually put in stuff for people to learn. EDUCATIONAL GAMING WHICH IS FUN!? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS!

I'm not thinking so much of historical things (like how olde style coins were minted), but rather things like algebra which are still very useful today. Whilst I know you're not doing this for profit, doing something which could actually be useful for schools/colleges would be an incredible service. I have a friend who works with disabled kids (mostly very autistic) and he says that minecraft has literally revolutionised teaching with them - they can actually learn stuff which before they would never have had the patience or inclination to do.

URR could be the next step, gaming with a strong mathematical, scientific and literary focus - sort of like college level educational gaming.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

What would you like players to gain by the end of the game? You've got cryptography, detailed renaissance style history, i feel we could easily come away with something useful if you're so inclined.

Also, thought you'd like this: it will be a series discussing the role of academia in games amongst other things. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/13/electric-dreams-part-1-the-lost-future-of-ai/#more-270717

That's actually a really good idea - with a world this detailed, you could actually put in stuff for people to learn. EDUCATIONAL GAMING WHICH IS FUN!? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS!

I'm not thinking so much of historical things (like how olde style coins were minted), but rather things like algebra which are still very useful today. Whilst I know you're not doing this for profit, doing something which could actually be useful for schools/colleges would be an incredible service. I have a friend who works with disabled kids (mostly very autistic) and he says that minecraft has literally revolutionised teaching with them - they can actually learn stuff which before they would never have had the patience or inclination to do.

URR could be the next step, gaming with a strong mathematical, scientific and literary focus - sort of like college level educational gaming.

Very interesting question (and thanks for the article!).

Well... I have very mixed feelings about "educational games". The fundamental issue is to me is that 99% of educational games are not games - they are just... I don't know. Simulated environments. Virtual environments. Interactive simulations. Whatever. People are misusing the term "game" for "something with normally 3D graphics on a computer which you interact with", but something designed to teach people nuclear powerplant safety, say, or designed *specifically* to teach people about urban planning, or whatever else, aren't games; they're just interactive learning tools. And that's fine, I'm sure there's a place for that, but - whilst there are many academic definitions of "game" out there, several of which I think are very worthwhile and have a lot to offer - I don't think by any definition these are "games". At the most, you might "play" them (as I think one does engage with programs like that with a ludic/game-playing attitude, but no more than one might approach things like religious ritual, musical rehearsal, etc, with the same), but they are certainly not "games".

What I do think is interesting, though, is "games which happen to teach" (GWHOT) (a catchy title, I know) - that includes things like the Civ/EU/CK games for history, things like EVE Online for how economies function, and so forth. Now that does actually interest me, particularly since (in both examples) what you're learning is integrated into the gameplay, rather than background lore/interest/whatever (like in some games), and rather than not actually being a game at all (a la educational games). I really want URR to basically teach historiography, first and foremost; the vagueness of historical data, the inaccuracies in writing the historical record, the difficulties in reconstructing past events, and so forth. At the same time, some more general exploration of religions, heresies, cultures, race, and so forth would be nice too.

Now - I'm at around the 50% mark on URR, give or take. I have a clear plan for completion, and I also know what the game I make next will be after URR (though no telling until URR is a good 90% done!). I do want to create what one might term "scholarly games" or "intellectual games" (though I think I prefer SG, of those two). Civ/EU/CK/Eve are these, no doubt, but there's only a small bunch of topics they've explored, and it's other topics I'd like to explore. I am actually in touch with some academics working in historiography, teaching via games and similar topics, so there's definite potential there too...

So, basically: yes, I hope it will make people really, really think - especially in ways you don't normally think in games - and about topics that games don't ordinarily touch, *without* being heavy-handed, and whilst still being A GAME, and one where the themes and the gameplay are connected.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

First off – I’m planning to host this year’s IRDC (International Roguelike Developers Conference), either at the University of Lincoln, or possibly at the National Video Game Arcade in Nottingham (both in the UK), at some time around the end of June. If you’re interested, and if you would attend, please let me know so I can gauge interest/numbers. The conference is an “unconference” and open to everyone from developers to fans, academics to journalists, and whoever else fancies coming along. It’s entirely free. There will probably be one day of talks, one day of demos, and general socializing/eating/other human activities.

In the mean time:

Cathedrals:

Cathedrals, at last, are finished. They took the best part of the week to make as varied and interesting as I wanted – and to put in place features that will be needed in 0.8, such as quarters for the priests, potential for a cathedral to lead to a crypt, etc – but now they’re done, and I think there’s around 20,000,000 possible variations, give or take. Whereas the smaller religious buildings for each religion have names chosen from a large set, so you might get churches, pagodas, stupas, parsonages, etc, the largest building for each religion is known as a “cathedral” always – this is not out of an attempt to be christian-focused, but simply because there aren’t enough specific words for “a larger than normal religious building” to allow every religion to have its own! Whilst there may be dozens of lesser religious buildings around towns, cities, monasteries, etc, there will only be one cathedral, always positioned (as those who have explored 0.6 may have seen) in the city center of that religion’s home nation.

Here’s the cathedral I unveiled last week (just repeated here for the sake of comparison) and two of the others that have been generated this week, to give some idea of the variety. I spent around two hours just generating cathedrals over and over – it worked through pretty much every archetype and highlighted a small number of bugs, but with those fixed, I’m pretty confident they’re all generating correctly and cathedrals, finally, are DONE.






 
Altars:

I’ve finished off the remaining religious altar graphic generation this week, and next week’s blog entry probably is going to be a detailed update about how I went about generating them, the variety across altars, the relationships between altars and the particular kinds of deities they represent (different deities have different archetypes), and so on and so forth. The last set of altars that needed coding were what I (perhaps harshly) call the “standard altars” – these are for the more “ordinary” gods who do not fit into one of the rare archetypes, and are therefore given this set of altars. However, there is still significant variation in this altar archetype – here’s a couple of examples. There are twenty bases, twenty materials the base of the altar can be made from, seven altar shapes, thirty “edge” patterns, thirty “inner” patterns, around fifty possible items that can be placed on top, and twenty colour schemes:



(Just to remind everyone, what you see above is only one of the five current “archetypes” for altar generation; there are four others, and one more planned, though that might have to wait until 0.

Crypts (Planning):

I have begun design work on crypts, and these will be one of the next things I’ll show on the blog. At this point I’ve figured out how I want them to generate, and the differences between the two locations they can appear – crypts can be found in graveyards, in which case it will be a broadly “secular” crypt for important figures from that nation’s leading family, particularly important/noble knights/etc; and they can also be found under cathedrals, in which case it will be a “religious” crypt containing past religious rulers, saints, etc. Of course, some of these bodies might be missing if they died far from the home nation, and if you happen to read in a book somewhere that they died carrying a particular relic…

Anyway. I’ve been planning this out, and also the far less likely things that will generate in each crypt to add variation, and also how the graphics for the specific cadaver tombs and sarcophagi in crypts should be generated, and also just the technical stuff of making sure this ties correctly to figures in world history. This week has only been planning, but in the coming week crypts are one of the things I’ll be working on. Since that might be quite a big task, I’m also aiming to generate a whole bunch of the smaller/lesser buildings out there as well – I’m thinking military barracks, slave quarters, prisons and asylums, and maybe some hunter-gatherer buildings should all be done this week, but we’ll see what takes my fancy.

In Conclusion:

See you all next week for either the detailed examination of religious altars, or a more general update on crypts and other buildings, depending on whether I get Google Analytics sorted out on the blog before then, since the latest update I downloaded completely broke it. Sigh.

[Scoops Novel]

Great! *high 5's all round and a fist-bump for retropunch!*

[Retropunch]

Cathedrals look amazing!! I can't wait to wander round them!!


RE: educational games.
I definitely agree that games which set out from the start to be educational tend to not be great fun - or the fun is very secondary.  I was definitely thinking more along the lines of 'Games which happen to teach' but I feel that URR, being a very detailed simulated environment, would allow for the 'learning of skills' to fit in without being heavy handed.
Something like cryptography or algebra could be worked in through puzzles, and the game could provide enough information (with ingame books/NPCs!) for you to learn how to do it even if you don't know anything about them.
These could be mostly optional (perhaps to unlock ziggurats or vaults), but would allow players to learn a new skill through gaming, which I think would be a very exciting thing to bring to the gaming world. Other things could be taught through simple testing - for instance, to get to the top of the merchants guild, you might be tested on your knowledge of economics.

The main reason I'm for this though, is that games tend to hand things to you based on twitch based skill, in game stats or RNG. Few games - if any - reward you having actual skills and knowledge. I feel that it would add a feeling of achievement that finding a 'magic ring of ice blast' would never be able to match. This would be doubled if you had actually learnt something that was useful outside the game.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Great! *high 5's all round and a fist-bump for retropunch!*

It was a good question! I should write up a full blog entry some time on "pedagogical goals" or something similar...

Cathedrals look amazing!! I can't wait to wander round them!!

RE: educational games.
I definitely agree that games which set out from the start to be educational tend to not be great fun - or the fun is very secondary.  I was definitely thinking more along the lines of 'Games which happen to teach' but I feel that URR, being a very detailed simulated environment, would allow for the 'learning of skills' to fit in without being heavy handed.
Something like cryptography or algebra could be worked in through puzzles, and the game could provide enough information (with ingame books/NPCs!) for you to learn how to do it even if you don't know anything about them.
These could be mostly optional (perhaps to unlock ziggurats or vaults), but would allow players to learn a new skill through gaming, which I think would be a very exciting thing to bring to the gaming world. Other things could be taught through simple testing - for instance, to get to the top of the merchants guild, you might be tested on your knowledge of economics.

The main reason I'm for this though, is that games tend to hand things to you based on twitch based skill, in game stats or RNG. Few games - if any - reward you having actual skills and knowledge. I feel that it would add a feeling of achievement that finding a 'magic ring of ice blast' would never be able to match. This would be doubled if you had actually learnt something that was useful outside the game.

Excellent! I'm taking a little break from "big" generation for a day or two currently, working on small things like barracks, stables, some hunter-gatherer buildings, town halls, etc, then I'll be going onto crypts, which should be finished by the time of next weekend's blog update.

I think "unlock a new skill via gaming" is a nice way to express it - as I say, the main one I'm interested in "developing" is... I guess "critical thinking" about history, but also cryptography is an interesting one that I think can be integrated well into gameplay (as you say, "optional"/"additional" gameplay). As you say, games mostly develop twitch skill (and, indeed, two nights ago I actually got the world record in a twitch-based game! I'll be posting that on the blog in the next few weeks) but I really like the idea of rewarding people for developing *knowledge*, and also of course doing the same within the game - the more knowledge you gather of the in-game world, the more intelligently you should be able to make your decisions and pursue your objectives (which, at last, will begin to emerge in 2015!).

[Neonivek]

I definitely agree that games which set out from the start to be educational tend to not be great fun - or the fun is very secondary.

You have to play the right one... The major issue with "educational games" is that they are either made for incredibly young children and prescribe to the lowest common denominator.

Or they are "Learning tools" meant for you to attempt to beat your head in over and over again and not meant to be fun at all (Mavis beacon for example)

There are reasons why I wish people would make educational games for adults.

But if you have such trouble finding an educational game that approaches fun try... Super Solvers Outnumbered... Or try out one of the Magic School Bus games which is more "Interactive storybook" then actual games but it should get the point across. Or "Where in the World is Carmen Santiago" which can be insanely tough even for an adult.

Or rather... Them attempting to be "Educational" isn't what is making them "not fun" in the same way that Educational television isn't "unfun" because of the education aspect (just watch Magic School Bus or Bill Nye the Science Guy for a rebuttal that educational means boring). They are "Not fun" because they are just poorly made games for an audience who "doesn't know any better" or marketed towards parents.

---

Critical thinking when fostered in a game is good all around anyhow.

So long as you are creating a cohesive world with patterns of logic.

[Kaje]

This is so damn pretty, and I normally detest ASCII games.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Critical thinking when fostered in a game is good all around anyhow.

So long as you are creating a cohesive world with patterns of logic.

Agreed re: the profound un-fun-ness of most "educational games" - and that, really, is the plan! I was once more toying last night with the idea of totally removing combat from URR's plan. I don't think that'll happen, but I still want to make it profoundly rare and consequential...

This is so damn pretty, and I normally detest ASCII games.

Ha, thanks! Funnily enough, although quite the roguelike fan, I normally play NetHack, DoomRL and DCSS (my three main RLs) with tiles (but don't tell anyone...)

[Neonivek]

I was once more toying last night with the idea of totally removing combat from URR's plan

That, would certainly be interesting. But it would entirely change the scope, themes, and really the essence of your game fundamentally.

The way I'd see it, if you did do that, is that it is actually an archeology game that first generates the locations, then generates the "modern day" so to speak.

You should probably finish the game as it currently is before you do spin offs.

Though you should be happy that you made a game that has such a scope of ideas that you could make many great and interesting games from it.

[Robsoie]

Cathedrals:

[...]
but simply because there aren’t enough specific words for “a larger than normal religious building” to allow every religion to have its own! Whilst there may be dozens of lesser religious buildings around towns, cities, monasteries, etc, there will only be one cathedral, always positioned (as those who have explored 0.6 may have seen) in the city center of that religion’s home nation.

If the building is really unique , why not give it an unique name (randomly generated with various keywords, a bit like dwarven fortress are named), so instead of calling all those buildings named the Cathedral, you could have it named the Altar of Splendor , the Celestial Spark, the Eternal Office , the Cradle of Titans ... or whatever random generation may create as an unique name.

Possibly some prefix/suffix being picked from a list of keywords that are linked to the generated religion theme/characteristic/etc...

About removal of combat, if this happens there will be a need for something else that replace it so something happens at gameplay time for the player to keep people willing to go on with exploring their generated world.

[Zireael]

Robsoie, I like that unique building names idea!

[Retropunch]

If the building is really unique , why not give it an unique name (randomly generated with various keywords, a bit like dwarven fortress are named), so instead of calling all those buildings named the Cathedral, you could have it named the Altar of Splendor , the Celestial Spark, the Eternal Office , the Cradle of Titans ... or whatever random generation may create as an unique name.

About removal of combat, if this happens there will be a need for something else that replace it so something happens at gameplay time for the player to keep people willing to go on with exploring their generated world.

That's a great idea! Whilst I agree that it's difficult to think up loads of different names for religious buildings, the 'main' building/cathedral could be called something that would let the player know it was the main building.
For instance, lets say you have a god called 'Ixhia'.
This could lead to 'The grand altar of Ixhia', 'The high chamber of Ixhia', 'The seat of Ixhia', 'The holy temple of Ixhia' and so on. I think as long as you include the god name in it and make it sound regal enough there should be no problem using that instead of Cathedral, as I think that's a little bit dull when everything else is so excitingly named.


Re: Combat. This is something I would not like to see go. Even though games without combat can be fun (Portal) I think it takes away a lot of the character building people expect/want from an RL. Whilst I understand not wanting to make it into a hack'n'slash, you've got to give the player something to worry about/work towards on a more micro level or you get disengagement. It's also a realistic element of the game - medieval times were a lot more brutal, and travelling throughout the world always carried great risk from bandits and so on.
 

[Robsoie]

Speaking about combat, will the world be frozen at gameplay time, or will it still be updated (city being taken by example) with possible war between factions/states/groups ?