Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dutchling]

Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.

Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.

What if you're an Ogre and Elves tend to use Ogres for religious sacrifices?

[Delta Foxtrot]

Question for the developer:

What if you're an Ogre and Elves tend to use Ogres for religious sacrifices?

Any plans of this kind of unique relations between different races? If they are implemented, will they be randomized for each game or pre-set?
In one game, Elven and Dwarven civs are mortal enemies while in another one they will be like Rohan and Gondor in the third age?

[Rowanas]

Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.

Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.

But this would be a function of the unit type, not the strange nature of their bodies. Even if all orcs get a bonus to scaring things shitless, you're still not suffering a penalty because they're weirdly shaped, but because they cause fear. Ignorance and terror are not the same thing.

[BishopX]

Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.

Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.

But this would be a function of the unit type, not the strange nature of their bodies. Even if all orcs get a bonus to scaring things shitless, you're still not suffering a penalty because they're weirdly shaped, but because they cause fear. Ignorance and terror are not the same thing.

But think about how scary war elephants are, especially if you've never seen an elephant before. Once you get over the "what the hell is that" reaction you can respond better to the threat.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

could there be some form of greek-fire using person.
has limited fuel, not common at all, but by gods will anything in their way know about itt (unless it has fire resistance)
by greek fire, I mean the flamethrower type, not the throwy bottle type.

I hadn't thought of the possibility of something like that as a semi-siege weapon - I like the idea!

So I had a long, boring drive home from work today, and I spent most of it thinking about the implications of rogue-like speed systems on unit combat, particularly mounted charges.

In there are generally two ways of handling speed in roguelikes, either fast creates get a free move every X turns, or every turn a fast creature has a Y probability of getting an extra free move. Additionally, waiting generally advances time at the same rate that movement advances, which makes it hard for the slow creature to gain the initiative. Either ap proach has interesting and possibly deleterious implications for URR.

If fast creatures get regular extra moves,charges against enemies slower than you will be sensitive to initial conditions. For example if I can an extra move after every third regular move, charging against a static foe (say a stake wall with archers behind it)from a distance of 3, 7, 11 or 15 will always result in an initial free attack by the cavalry, while charging from 4,5,6,8,8,10.... will not. Since cavalry charges don't make sense in interia-less environments (the momentum of the horse is the weapon), allowing charging horses to 'wait' a turn to regain the correct positioning mid-charge doesn't make sense.

The other option, a random free move, is just as problematic. Imagine a squad of ten horse men charging who get a free move 33% of the time. The group is going to separate out over time, so for particularly long charges you will have a bell curve like distribution of your forces...again since units can't wait this would be sub optimal.

Very interesting thoughts, and something I hadn't considered. A few potential solutions off the top of my head:

a) A compromise could be made by combining the two - initially extra moves are given at random, but as more time goes by while Unit X hasn't had an extra move, the chance increases. So they will average out onto having their extra moves very close together. Additionally, there will be an option to 'force' creatures to maintain their formation for as long as possible, so if you tick that, a cavalry charge will remain constant at least until they meet combat.
b) Creatures can only move or attack in one turn 'sequence'. So if they get three turns, they can only use those three turns moving, or attacking. Again, have an option for forcing them to stick to formation. Thus, the cavalry will reach the line, and then combat will begin for them next turn.

I'm not sure either of these solutions is good, and this is actually a really important question. In fact, so much so, this week's blog entry is going to be on this. I'm glad you've brought this to my attention; the extra-turns-each-turn model is fine for most roguelikes, but it could be very detrimental here.

Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.

Agreed, at least in terms of knowing/not knowing weak spots.

Huh.  So, if for example, a humanoid being fights a quadrupedal creature, or something I dunno, without legs, the humanoid would suffer a penalty, because it doesn't know how to proceed?

Cool.  Common sense and confidence, those are interesting qualities that I don't think I've seen really in other video games.

Yep - and thanks , I try. Also, initial combat with weird creatures will have your knowledge climb quickly at first, as you'll quickly learn obvious things while the more obscure, nuanced things will take longer...

Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.

Elves always get the short end of the stick. I'm sure there are SOME burly elves out there!

I think every civ should have its own form of individual scariness, for pyschological warfare.

Species certainly will, and civilizations may based on their past activities - a civ known for burning villages down will be feared much more than an empire-builder that's willing to incorporate any culture/religion as long as they pay taxes.

What if you're an Ogre and Elves tend to use Ogres for religious sacrifices?

Hmmmm. I suppose the extra anger/determination as a morale boost would be balanced against how heartless and evil those elves are (as the Orcs see it), and how big a problem these sacrifices are.

Any plans of this kind of unique relations between different races? If they are implemented, will they be randomized for each game or pre-set?
In one game, Elven and Dwarven civs are mortal enemies while in another one they will be like Rohan and Gondor in the third age?

Yes, absolutely, and this will not be preset. Species relationships will be randomized each game, and then civ relations will be randomised within that.

But this would be a function of the unit type, not the strange nature of their bodies. Even if all orcs get a bonus to scaring things shitless, you're still not suffering a penalty because they're weirdly shaped, but because they cause fear. Ignorance and terror are not the same thing.

But think about how scary war elephants are, especially if you've never seen an elephant before. Once you get over the "what the hell is that" reaction you can respond better to the threat.

Agreed - you can have a morale hit because they are scary, and/or because you don't know how to fight them. Of course, against some creatures, that's going to be the same thing at the start

[Rowanas]

Hmm. You might have some success with "smart" charging. As in, fast creatures will use their charge if there's nothng to stop them, or if it would bing them into melee range with an advantage. Otherwise, they'll charge up to just before the point at which they get stabbed (2 tiles away, generally), and use their extra movement on the turn after, in order to get full use of their charging bonus and to win the initiative.

[Man of Paper]

Maybe the cavalry charge could work like this (though I have exactly zero knowledge of what's possible with programming):

Take a three turn sequence for the charge. When the cavalry charges, they move one step for free so long as the area is not occupied. Give each unit a 75%, or whatever you deem fair, for another free step forward (or engage in combat with an enemy in front of him/her/it). Then another 25% or whatever chance to move yet another time. I think it'd effectively portray the loss of unit cohesion over a prolonged charge.

[Edmus]

Maybe the cavalry charge could work like this (though I have exactly zero knowledge of what's possible with programming):

Take a three turn sequence for the charge. When the cavalry charges, they move one step for free so long as the area is not occupied. Give each unit a 75%, or whatever you deem fair, for another free step forward (or engage in combat with an enemy in front of him/her/it). Then another 25% or whatever chance to move yet another time. I think it'd effectively portray the loss of unit cohesion over a prolonged charge.

Maybe the breed of horse could determine the odds.

[Man of Paper]

Maybe the cavalry charge could work like this (though I have exactly zero knowledge of what's possible with programming):

Take a three turn sequence for the charge. When the cavalry charges, they move one step for free so long as the area is not occupied. Give each unit a 75%, or whatever you deem fair, for another free step forward (or engage in combat with an enemy in front of him/her/it). Then another 25% or whatever chance to move yet another time. I think it'd effectively portray the loss of unit cohesion over a prolonged charge.

Maybe the breed of horse could determine the odds.

I think the horseman's skill would determine the odds, and maybe have the breed determine the maximum number of possible moves. So you could see a horse bred for war with a novice rider having a possibility of 5 moves but they'd go 100%->30%->15%->8.5%->2%, while a master horseman mounted on a lion would have a max of three moves at 100%->95%->90%.

[Leatra]

There is only one thing I'm certain about horseback fightining.

Only because riders have more turns than the infantry, that doesn't mean they can attack 5 times in a row. If a horseman has like... 6 turns, he should be only allowed to use 1 for attacking.

Also, if you keep moving without changing your direction much, you should gain more speed by acceleration.

[Man of Paper]

Though maybe if the enemy line is deeper than one man they can get an extra attack movement if they obliterate the first unit (which would be like a sweeping decapitation as the horseman rode past). Other than that I agree completely.

[Leatra]

Though maybe if the enemy line is deeper than one man they can get an extra attack movement if they obliterate the first unit (which would be like a sweeping decapitation as the horseman rode past). Other than that I agree completely.

Of course, I forgot that.

[BishopX]

Though maybe if the enemy line is deeper than one man they can get an extra attack movement if they obliterate the first unit (which would be like a sweeping decapitation as the horseman rode past). Other than that I agree completely.

That might want to be a flag on some weapon, like lances and horses. It probably doesn't work so well with a mace.

I do think a separate attack/move timer would help though, and there would be plenty of instances where you could attack but not move or move but not attack.

[Leatra]

Also, there should be an indicator that shows which direction the horse is running.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Hmm. You might have some success with "smart" charging. As in, fast creatures will use their charge if there's nothng to stop them, or if it would bing them into melee range with an advantage. Otherwise, they'll charge up to just before the point at which they get stabbed (2 tiles away, generally), and use their extra movement on the turn after, in order to get full use of their charging bonus and to win the initiative.

So do you mean they get to attack as part of the charge? And if they don't, they get an EXTRA move the turn after? This sounds like an interesting idea - could you elaborate?

Maybe the cavalry charge could work like this (though I have exactly zero knowledge of what's possible with programming):

Take a three turn sequence for the charge. When the cavalry charges, they move one step for free so long as the area is not occupied. Give each unit a 75%, or whatever you deem fair, for another free step forward (or engage in combat with an enemy in front of him/her/it). Then another 25% or whatever chance to move yet another time. I think it'd effectively portray the loss of unit cohesion over a prolonged charge.

Something like that might be possible with far lower chances (say, only 5% of dropping behind each move), as I think the numbers you describe would cause almost instant loss of cohesion. However, over a long charge, I think something like this would be good, but the skills of those riding the horses would reduce the amount of cohesion lost.

There is only one thing I'm certain about horseback fightining.

Only because riders have more turns than the infantry, that doesn't mean they can attack 5 times in a row. If a horseman has like... 6 turns, he should be only allowed to use 1 for attacking.

Also, if you keep moving without changing your direction much, you should gain more speed by acceleration.

Definitely - a horseman will only get one attack even if the horse gets two or three moves. Interesting direction-changing idea; I like it.

Though maybe if the enemy line is deeper than one man they can get an extra attack movement if they obliterate the first unit (which would be like a sweeping decapitation as the horseman rode past). Other than that I agree completely.

That might want to be a flag on some weapon, like lances and horses. It probably doesn't work so well with a mace.

I do think a separate attack/move timer would help though, and there would be plenty of instances where you could attack but not move or move but not attack.

These are very interesting suggestions. If I keep allowing the free attack, I like the idea of a chance to sweep past in a chance, especially against open units, and keep moving to continue attacking. That would definitely only go for certain weapons; as you say, not a mace! I think I'm leaning towards a separate move/attack timer, though I'm still not sure. Perhaps the chance of a free attack is the fundamental advantage that cavalry SHOULD be given, so it's not an issue?

Also, there should be an indicator that shows which direction the horse is running.

ARGH, this idea! That's a tricky one - I'm not sure whether to implement directional functions or not, yet. I'll get back to you on that one .

Lastly, here's a (belated) blog entry about exactly these issues, with my current proposed solution below! http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/03/19/speed-and-strategy/