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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 288714 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4426 on: May 11, 2014, 03:53:35 pm »

That's why I haven't posted anything about it until now.  I understand that McMillan's side of things is highly questionable, and I haven't really dug in to solidify my own opinion on how guilty or innocent she is, or what she deserves.  I normally ignore such grey area cases, because there's no shortage of black & white.

But the trial seems totally heinous.  Everything I've seen points to the judge being horribly biased, to the point that this trial appears to be severely undermining the legitimacy of the justice system. 

And it still bothers me that police have such free reign to respond to any kind of slight towards them with whatever brutality they please.  I've only bothered to watch one small video clip (the one that the jury said clinched her guilty verdict), and it was quite obvious that the police overwhelmingly mobbed her immediately after that elbow.  Justice to me would be both sides receiving charges - Cecilly for her actions and the police for their overreactions.  I don't understand why the justice system can get away with treating police like precious, fragile little flowers, as compared to the severity with which any other case of assault is treated.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4427 on: May 11, 2014, 04:44:34 pm »

Anyone really surprised though? Police, especially NY police have sorta just built a reputation on it like it's normal.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4428 on: June 27, 2014, 10:42:43 pm »

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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Levi

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4429 on: June 27, 2014, 11:51:02 pm »

I really enjoyed that, thanks for posting it.
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Sergarr

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4430 on: June 28, 2014, 06:53:54 am »

Must remember his face, to avoid pitchforking him.

I doubt the high-capitalist class behavior will change from one statement, though... the division is more on the cultural level.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4431 on: June 28, 2014, 01:55:33 pm »

I doubt the high-capitalist class behavior will change from one statement, though... the division is more on the cultural level.

It's the problem with capitalism, in my opinion.  Just like every other political/economic system, it works out great if everyone operates through it in good faith.  But over time it evolves to encourage dirty play, followed by widespread cultural division, ideological crisis, and instability as dominance by dirty players arises.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Angle

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4432 on: June 28, 2014, 02:01:39 pm »

Indeed. Personally, I think we need a whole new system, not just a new culture, but new institutions to go with it.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4433 on: June 28, 2014, 02:05:24 pm »

Me too.  And I think this was the core message of Occupy.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Angle

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4434 on: June 28, 2014, 02:23:49 pm »

You should check out Agora. That's the main thing I want it for, to aid in the creation of such a new system.
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Aklyon

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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4436 on: June 28, 2014, 03:37:16 pm »

I've had a mental image for a couple years of a social network system that enables people to organize labor according to mutualistic principles.  That's the kind of thing that I think could replace our current model.

The idea is you make a profile that includes your geographic location and skills and maybe even access to tools.  You post projects that you think are needed or worth doing, and that you can't do on your own.  A call for help.  It can be anything from "I'm too sick to get out of bed.  I need someone to help me with chores." to "Let's fix all the city's roads" to "Let's work on a cure for cancer."  These calls will be visible to people with relevant skillsets and geographic location.  The call for help with chores would be visible to pretty much anyone close to you.  The call for road repairs would be visible to anyone in your county with the proper skills and/or tools.  The call for a cure for cancer would be visible to anyone in the world with proper skills and/or tools.

Every call would generate a discussion thread for organizing.  Broad scale/complex calls would generate their own forum.  Of course, the volume of information on this thing would be pretty extreme, so there would need to be sophisticated filtering tools for browsing and displaying the calls that are most relevant to every person.  Also a voting system for raising the visibility of calls according to widespread agreement and priority, and an alarm system for calls like "Somebody's dying.  Need help now."

I've also thought about the idea of a reputation/endorsement system to mark individuals that do a lot for the community or do things really well, making that person more likely to receive extra support in return for their contributions.  And otherwise, the motivation to participate would be that the economy sucks, and this kind of tool would be a powerful and dynamic way to help people get things done without relying on an abstracted model of organization like capitalism is.

Because what I've seen is that as the formal economy continues to fail more and more people, alternative styles of informal micro-economies spring up everywhere to replace it.  People start bartering and finding other ways to support each other while they do things because they need to be done, even if no one's getting paid for them.  And since around the mid-2000s, these things are becoming increasingly digital in nature.  Advanced communication tools are used to facilitate mutualistic cooperation.  And some are made specifically for that purpose, such as freecycle.

But those are scattered bits that get a good thing done here and there.  I think all we need is a tool that's deliberately built to unite that trend into something that can grow and evolve in scope, and become a deeper part of our culture moving forward.  And the most important thing about it is it doesn't need to take the form of a direct resistance to capitalism.  It doesn't need to challenge and fight against any establishment, or stake out any isolated land claim where it can be free to do its own thing.  It's something that people can freely participate in when it makes sense for them to do so, even alongside their normal participation in the capitalist economy.  This gives it the freedom to grow unhindered by any legitimate claim of immediate threat by existing powers, and that's the only kind of thing that's capable of succeeding right now, given the current hyper-ideologically vigilant and militarized police state of America. 

--edit--
And most importantly, it doesn't rely on anybody's ideological convictions to earn their participation, which I think is something that dooms many projects to failure.  The thing I've noticed about major changes is that they just happen to make sense to people who aren't thinking into things any deeper than the need to navigate their daily lives.  People will latch on to anything that works around obstacles and makes their lives easier.  I noticed this with online piracy.  Most people don't do it for ideological reasons.  They do it because it accomplishes something for them without any immediate consequences.  It's easy and just makes sense, and that's all they care about.  I think any kind of attempt at deep change needs to recognize this.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 03:45:15 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Angle

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4437 on: June 28, 2014, 04:11:16 pm »

That sounds like an interesting idea, though it's different from what I had envisioned.

For now, I want Agora to facilitate the discussion of such methods and their implementation. If I can get it working as well as I hope, it would essentially become a supercomputer composed of networked humans, instead of networked computers.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4438 on: June 28, 2014, 04:15:25 pm »

That sounds like an interesting idea, though it's different from what I had envisioned.

For now, I want Agora to facilitate the discussion of such methods and their implementation. If I can get it working as well as I hope, it would essentially become a supercomputer composed of networked humans, instead of networked computers.

I remember when you first started posting about Agora, and have always planned to look into it.  I'll try to give it some attention this weekend.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Steeled

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4439 on: June 29, 2014, 12:03:39 am »


So you want a reddit clone for bartering/charity work? And you think this would be viable? How exactly would this be policed? How would you protect the rights of these workers? Do you envision this as an online socialist movement?

To be honest some elements remind me of libertarianism, Which I'm sure a few of you would disagree with.
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