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[BrodieBrodie]

Aye, such was its intention, but the project has taken a life of its own. To be frank, I did start with the intention of improving the concept, not copying it. The reason I launched into the project in the first place is that I felt Holistic had wasted a fabulous opportunity to produce a legendary game. What I liked about EFS was not the actual game (it is very quickly unplayable), rather its ideas. These ideas are not EFS original, they originate from Dune (the novel) which in turn is based on a sort of Byzantine/medieval empire of the future. EFS score points in: having individual planet maps, civ style expansion, the use of hexes, the guild and church, medieval nobility/peasants, the election, the offices, the coming of the republic, the alien invasion while players battle to become Emporer, the need to rediscover techs yet the church proscribing them ect. these are fantastic ideas but in my view were terribly implemented (actualy lets be frank, many of the ideas were not implemented at all). I am trying to keep the ideas, but  implement then in sometimes radically different ways. Spies or religious sects is a case in point, it seems like in EFS they were just ideas, nothing but, but ad-infinitum aims to implement the ideas into the game play. I dont view the project as taking a different direction really, just continuing along the path EFS set but never explored.

[Lap]

Are you planning on making AI, turn based or something closer to real time?

I think the hardest part of my project has been simply choosing how to implement this stuff, not the coding itself. I've been shooting ideas back and forth for over a year, and some of these concepts I still have no answer for. I don't think I've seen a good way to do the sects so I've cut that, same with hexes. I'm interested to see your take on these things.

[BrodieBrodie]

Update, just now added AdInfinitum_1_9_9_1_2.zip, this version introduces factions in units. some worlds now have a few different coloured units. e.g the yellow colour "Angel" world or the orange "Yonder"...have two unites of different colour. these units can not enter the hex of a different factions units, e.g they will return if sent to occupy a hex with a Grey unit (note the nobles on these worlds also belong to the different colour faction, so the same rules aply). These are the prelude to several important elements: the computer differentiates between factions, the computer knows that two opposing units are trying to enter the same space and can take instructions according. at the moment these instructions are, stop moving and go to the center of the last hex you were in. coming up: an instruction to then commence hostilities. Hell, Im getting there.

Lap: real time, but much slower unit combat that normal real time games (units keep firing at each other for tens of minutes before a resolution). Yea the implication is tough, one has to be determined at time, the hex field was a bitch programming, you cant imagine the headaches trying to get rivers to randomly flow to the sea, and then there was giving the hexes the false 3d appearance, difficult at times to work out where things are, but oh so worth it. Note also that all the universe is virtual, ie occupies virtual memory, that means that all world hexes are individual nodes, or to use another term: each hex is a sprite and can be created destroyed at will from memory, so to each town, forest, mine etc, all linked nodes access by pointers. Makes the game very fast and efficient. I find the coding difficult if i am not flexible (i.e. captains may be hard to program so i may have to reduce their functionality, at least to start with). Religious sects are easy easy for me, they give bonuses and dictate a style of play, e.g. if you are familiar with Master of Orion 2, you chose a bonus and negative functions at start, like the EFS bonus trait screen at start. It is your sect choice that gives you these bonuses and you lose them if you are excommunicated, e.g your sect gives you a planet food production, population or industrial growth, military fanatics..... Sects also have a style of belief e.g one sect hates techs so aims to ban most modern stuff, another hates warfare between the Houses so tries to encourage peace, another focuses on the aliens, your position within the sect can dictate the influence of the church e.g suggesting that such a tech (which your enemies happen to have and not you) is really evil, or suggesting the church liberate such and such a world close to you from the aliens while curiously ignoring an alien invasion in your adversaries domain. 

[mainiac]

How are these ideas going to relate to a solid gameplay experience though?  EFS was shoved out the door before it was finished, but with a little rebalancing thanks to the nova mod, it was playable and quite enjoyable.  I think that was because the elements that it did have, namely:

1) Standard 4X gameplay
2) The intrigue ridden elections
3) A simple but effective economic system that (with rebalancing) allowed for tradeoffs

Together were enough for a complete, interesting game without any of the missing/half finished stuff that the devs never finished.  Those things could have been nice but it was the core three elements that made the game.  I would argue that these core three elements fit together a lot better (at least after the nova mod) then the core features of a lot of more polished games.

I would say though that I think that the sects idea as you've laid it out does seem like a very natural and organic expansion on the framework.  That sounds like it would work very well with the above elements.

[BrodieBrodie]

"How are these ideas going to relate to a solid gameplay experience though?" I listed the projects ideas at http://www.kborek.cz/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=949 hope that answers your question. I'm not sure EFS was shoved out before it was finished, yes I heard the story, but the game does not have the mechanics in my view make real changes. Yes the Nova mod was an improvement, but it could not address the issues I am trying to take on. Yes, one two and three are great points and make for a good game idea, but I felt there was something deeper. I got the real impression that the ideas behind the game were amazing, yet not exploited in the slightest in the actual game.   

[Lap]

Oh, well if sect's are just a way to have faction traits, playstyle, and goals then yea, that's no biggie. just need to dedicate some time to balancing it. I was referring to sects as it seemed EFS wanted them, which was having population follow a certain sect, similar to how the Total War series has done it. I can't find a fun way to do it.

Tick based real time, like EU3, HoI, is a great option for this type of game and I've considered it many times (still might even switch over to it some day).  My main concern with this method is how laggy it might be. Speaking of which, I don't remember if any multiplayer is in your game yet, but if it isn't I would immediately switch over to working on that. Make it so that even singleplayer is just connecting to a localhost. Not doing this now will mean a much larger pain in the ass than if you did it later. You will also be able to work out which features will not be implementable due to lag or some other network problems. Design it with multiplayer in mind from the ground up as much as you can.

[mainiac]

Ah, I finally figured out what's been bugging me so.

Won't tick based turns turn this into an RTS?  And successful RTS games tend to follow a very different mold then turn based 4x.  EFS had a strong sense of planning, balance of power and treachery.  I've never experienced those in an RTS and don't see how they are possible.

[Il Palazzo]

Oh, competition. Gotta watch and steal ideas.

[BrodieBrodie]

Design it with multiplayer in mind from the ground up as much as you can.

No, sorry, but it is a question of priorities. I am the only one working on the project at present so I cant be to ambitious nor cater to endless future possibilities. I have to draw the line and concentrate on the now or nothing will ever be completed. Yes, your logic makes sense but my strategy is to concentrate on building the game up: First single player, then add artificial intelligence, Then go back and finish grafix and environment (game balance, game play, world types etc), then add save game features, Tidy up (speed+memory optimizations), then add multilayer. When multiplayer does become an issue, game will likely use the lib files of DirectPlay.

My main concern with this method is how laggy it might be.

Aye, good point, I hope the answer below will address this, the game mechanics will hopefully be technically turned based, i.e. the unites move in and combat is calculated in hexes (neat boxes) over a longer period of time than the usual RTS.

Won't tick based turns turn this into an RTS?

Heavens, I hope not. If it is any consolation I am not a fan of RTS (nor 3D, which makes me a rare bird). First, note the games use of hexes that continue to play a part not just in drawing the game but also in defining the units locations (things are still in the neat turn based 4x boxes), secondly: I hope that the delayed time element will play an important part. The big reason I am aiming for real time is to add strategy to the turn based system while keeping the turn based organization. the strategies I hope to add is the calculations of flanking a unit (attacking from two or more direction, artillery fire, and orbital fire) calculated into combat resolution as one move (rather than first bombard , then tell comp that the unit is flanked, then attack ect) as, given the size of the universe, doing this in turn based would make turns unbelievably long and complex in my view.

[Il Palazzo]

The big reason I am aiming for real time is to add strategy to the turn based system while keeping the turn based organization. the strategies I hope to add is the calculations of flanking a unit (attacking from two or more direction, artillery fire, and orbital fire) calculated into combat resolution as one move (rather than first bombard , then tell comp that the unit is flanked, then attack ect) as, given the size of the universe, doing this in turn based would make turns unbelievably long and complex in my view.

Note that this has been done many times in turn-based war games like "The Ardennes Offensive" by simply providing bonuses to combat resolution for flanking manouvers and artillery/aircraft support.
Still, whatever your reasons, it's going to be interesting to see how it turns out.

[BrodieBrodie]

"The Ardennes Offensive"

Aye, that is the one I have in mind. The problem I had was that every turn you not only had to attack but chose who was supporting who from the side, which artillery was bombarding who, plane.... I liked the idea, and but thought it would be nigh unplayable in a universes of about 200 worlds if you had to keep repeating instructions. Yes I hope it works, otherwise there will be a lot of pointy fingers saying "I told you so".

[Il Palazzo]

Nah, it's easy to point fingers, but considering that you want to have such a large game map(with hexes!) AND keep the combat detailed enough for e.g.flanking to make sense, then your choice is quite logical.

[BrodieBrodie]

Up date, just now uploaded AdInfinitum_1_9_9_1_3.zip:
at: https://sourceforge.net/projects/ad-infinitum/files/AdInfinitum_1_9_9_1_3.zip/download
This has routines for unit conflict, at the moment this "conflict" is just a standoff that lasts about 10 seconds. important information on units "facing" direction, who is attacking who, finding the unit defending etc has been coded. some areas turned out to be surprisingly complex, so it is good they are out the way. for example the hole area of units and hexes is in virtual linked nodes so the locations of memory have to be found via the address which itself is often also located at the address of another node, which in turn to also be found at the address....so for example to access the information on a units direction the following pointers to pointers to pointers to pointer are needed:
unit_in_hex->facing  =  unit_in_hex->going_path->next_path_node->direction_next_path_node; 
ah what fun.
other: I added a basic routine for ai movement. to see this in action, find the central world "CAPITAL". This world is stuffed chock a block with info and has a planets scape (47 x 47) double layers of nodes (landscape hexes then city hexes) and the city nodes are not just pretty pics but each contain info of inhabitants and where they work (turned off at present so cant be seen, but it it still there). So capital is a good place to test the stress levels of play. The "ai" here is simply to make units wait a random time and go to random locations (but of a fixed type...e.g. go to closest star port, or go to closest factory). This is to test the use of waiting lists for tasks and see the stress of the path finding routines. The path finding in hexes is very complex and slow so this is and area I'll have to keep an eye on.
stopped units being able to walk into sea. linked hexes to worlds. hexes could in the past only be found from the world or from what was at the hex, although this saved memory (now the hexes use up a lot of space with 47 x 47 identical pointers to the world) the problem was that when the ai was moving one of its units it had no way of actually knowing which world the unit was on as the unit was linked to the hex. There is an interesting result from this "bug", I have not yet corrected the code to link the movement to a world when a human moves a units, so nothing is there to stop the units "jumping worlds", ie, select a unit then right click to orbit, right click to space, right click to scroll, then long left click to another world will put the unit on that world as it is the left click which triggers the placement, not the view.
Not sure why I am filling you all in on the boring details, guess I just want to rant about the "fun" problems i had.
Enjoy

[BrodieBrodie]

update: AdInfinitum_1_9_9_1_4.zip at https://sourceforge.net/projects/ad-infinitum/

various adjustment, turned the planet town select back on, made mouse select unit easier, units now go to center of hex, working on a zoom feature to make planet movement easier.

[BrodieBrodie]

Briefly, ad infinitum has a new homepage at:
http://www.spacesimcentral.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=79
Yours ever,
BB