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Author Topic: Beginner's Mafia XXVI - Scum Win!  (Read 62814 times)

Urist_McArathos

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2011, 12:10:44 am »

zombie Why so apologetic? You do understand part of scumhunting is to pressure people into making mistakes, right?
I only apologized once and that was because I missed a post. Yes, but what are other parts of scumhunting? 

Are you asking me because you don't know how scumhunting works, or are you asking me because you want to know what you need to hide from me?
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Urist_McArathos

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2011, 12:16:12 am »

Ah, and I see Irony answered my question.  This is why it's bad to play sleepy; three posts that a more alert me would have condensed into one.

Unvote
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zombie urist

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2011, 12:23:38 am »

zombie Why so apologetic? You do understand part of scumhunting is to pressure people into making mistakes, right?
I only apologized once and that was because I missed a post. Yes, but what are other parts of scumhunting? 
Are you asking me because you don't know how scumhunting works, or are you asking me because you want to know what you need to hide from me?
I want to know your thoughts and techniques on scumhunting apart from asking questions and waiting for mistakes.

You mean he should stop doing exactly what you're doing right now? Why aren't you scumhunting Zombie?
Yes. :-[ I was out of town most of the weekend. I'm going to sleep now.

Nope. As I said, it was a mild suspicion, brought about by the fact that you voted for the same as someone else, without demonstrating your own reasoning. The fact that, apart from a single post, where you questioned me and orangebottle and voted for me (in the somewhat iffy circumstances of following two other votes but not providing your own reasong), your posts have been sparse and reactionary, does not help your case.
The phrasing of these sentences is really awkward.
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Max White

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2011, 04:00:43 am »

Votecount

Flandre[1]: zombie urist
Urist_McArathos[0]:
billybobfred[0]:
ed boy[1]: IronyOwl
backtobasesix[3]: Orangebottle, billybobfred, Jim Groovester
zombie urist[0]:
Orangebottle[0]:
Jim Groovester[0]:
IronyOwl[0]:

Not voting: backtobasesix, ed boy, Flandre, Urist_McArathos

The day will end in 12 hours, you need 3 votes to extend and 5 to shorten.
backtobasesix has not responded to my reminder, so if the day is extended he will be prodded


How extensions work
Most of the time, a day phase in mafia will be set for a certain number of hours. Once this is up, the day will end, the voted will be counted, and who ever has attracted the most votes will be lynched, so you should always know how long a day goes for.

However, it is possible to vote to extend the day. A vote to extend will not count as your lynching vote, and should be done in bold instead of red. If enough votes are gathered, the day will be extended for a number of hours, normally amounting to one or two days. Some games will limit the number of extensions given, but as this is a beginners game, you will be able to extend forever, unless I should decide the day has become unproductive.

Remember, although it is nice to have more time on your hands, time pressure is important for your game, so don't just assume extensions are always a good thing. Use the time you are given wisely, and ask for more when you know you need it.

TolyK

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Pregame Banter
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2011, 04:26:26 am »

... once again proving the dangers of putting peoples lives in the hands of programmers.
Hey!
...
watching.
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Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

Jim Groovester

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2011, 05:03:45 am »

Extension.

We need it.

We also need something to light this game on fire and really get it going. Which one of you's going to step up and do it?

Come on, isn't there anything suspicious you've seen? Anything you think is suspicious? Odd? Out of place? Weird? Peculiar?

Ask about it. Let nothing go unquestioned.
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Orangebottle

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2011, 05:48:15 am »

Extend.
I'd like to give Backtobasesix a chance, at least.



As for my new focus, yes, I vaguely noticed that a bunch of people were on basesix for lurking, but that's not something I actually considered. I just don't get how someone could not notice that the game has started. So I asked. It's probably going to be a staggeringly mundane and believable explanation, but there won't be any responses to gauge unless I ask something.
If you know what the answer's going to be, why are you asking the question? If his response is obvious, your question is unnecessary and you're wasting your time. Ask somebody else a question and stop filling our heads with nonsense.
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Urist_McArathos

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2011, 09:56:49 am »

zombie Why so apologetic? You do understand part of scumhunting is to pressure people into making mistakes, right?
I only apologized once and that was because I missed a post. Yes, but what are other parts of scumhunting? 
Are you asking me because you don't know how scumhunting works, or are you asking me because you want to know what you need to hide from me?
I want to know your thoughts and techniques on scumhunting apart from asking questions and waiting for mistakes.

I can see that; you didn't answer my question though.  I know what information you want, but I don't know why you want it.  Tell me.

I'm not going to spell out my tactics and strategies on scumhunting right where the scum can see them.  It's enough to know that I'm going to be looking for scum as best as I can.
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billybobfred

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2011, 10:34:58 am »

Extend.

As for my new focus, yes, I vaguely noticed that a bunch of people were on basesix for lurking, but that's not something I actually considered. I just don't get how someone could not notice that the game has started. So I asked. It's probably going to be a staggeringly mundane and believable explanation, but there won't be any responses to gauge unless I ask something.
The game has started a while back, so I am sure that if this were the case, he would have found out about it already. He could have forgotten that he was playing, even. The weekend was pretty sleepy, so we might hear from him tomorrow. Hopefully.

I think you're misunderstanding me.

Sorry guys, I didn't realize this had started already, I didn't expect it to start so soon.
This is the thing I am talking about. It confuses me and I am questioning it.
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urist mcgeorg, who lives in boatmurdered and makes over 10,000 bad decisions each day,

IronyOwl

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2011, 02:15:19 pm »

As for my new focus, yes, I vaguely noticed that a bunch of people were on basesix for lurking, but that's not something I actually considered. I just don't get how someone could not notice that the game has started. So I asked. It's probably going to be a staggeringly mundane and believable explanation, but there won't be any responses to gauge unless I ask something.
If you know what the answer's going to be, why are you asking the question? If his response is obvious, your question is unnecessary and you're wasting your time. Ask somebody else a question and stop filling our heads with nonsense.
Asking questions you already know the answer to can be helpful at times; every response scum has to give is another chance to screw up.


billybobfred, how do you feel about lynching lurkers?
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zombie urist

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2011, 02:37:37 pm »

unvote.
ed boy You seem to be asking a lot of questions, but don't seem to be following up on most of the questions you asked.

If you know what the answer's going to be, why are you asking the question? If his response is obvious, your question is unnecessary and you're wasting your time. Ask somebody else a question and stop filling our heads with nonsense.
If you believe this then why did you do this?

I can see that; you didn't answer my question though.  I know what information you want, but I don't know why you want it.  Tell me.
I'm not going to spell out my tactics and strategies on scumhunting right where the scum can see them.  It's enough to know that I'm going to be looking for scum as best as I can.
I want to know because I want to improve my game. As I said earlier, this is my first serious game of mafia and I want to get better. If you don't want to share, thats ok, but just because the scum know the strategies doesn't necessarily mean they can avoid it.
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Orangebottle

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2011, 02:55:05 pm »

I'm not trying to come to your defense, though that may have been the end result. One needs to pay attention if they want to catch scum in this game. The fact that he missed a post this early is suspicious to me, mostly because there's a lot less to miss. I knew he wouldn't say much beyond "Doh! Missed that one!" or similar. That wasn't the point. I was trying to see how he reacts to suspicion. Of course, you had to jump in and ruin that. And yes, you would be equally guilty if you had missed a post this early.
That's why.
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Orangebottle

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2011, 03:09:32 pm »

EBWODP: The difference between our questions? He asked a question for the sake of asking a question. I asked a question because I wanted to find out how you react to suspicion.

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Urist_McArathos

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2011, 03:11:51 pm »

Thank you for answering my question, Zombie.  I personally disagree with your outlook; I feel that if I outline my strategy it will help the scum players know what I'm looking for and plan to avoid it, or counter it.

For what it's worth,  the first post has a rather nice spoilered bit called "Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible" that you should read if you're looking for a more in-depth answer to the question "How do I scumhunt?".

ed boy, I'm really wondering about you.  I'd like to hear some responses to the questions, both mine and others, asked of you since you last posted.

backtobasesix, I'm not so much interested in how you missed the fact the game had started, but VERY interested in your refusal to participate when you did post.  All three of your posts were brief answers to other questions; you didn't cast any RVS votes or ask any questions, even softball RVS ones.  I can understand inability to be around, I cannot understand refusal to do something when you get here.  Why aren't you interested in asking even one question?
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ed boy

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXVI 7/7, 3/3 - Day 1 - Hazards of the Trench
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2011, 03:41:46 pm »

Nope. As I said, it was a mild suspicion, brought about by the fact that you voted for the same as someone else, without demonstrating your own reasoning. The fact that, apart from a single post, where you questioned me and orangebottle and voted for me (in the somewhat iffy circumstances of following two other votes but not providing your own reasong), your posts have been sparse and reactionary, does not help your case.
Why would I need reasoning to vote you with a question?

But yes, third vote without a good reason for it is noteworthy, at least.
You don't need reasoning to do so, but it helps. It was not the vote by itself that was suspicious, it was the fact that it was one of three of a kind.

What is it exactly about having multiple votes that makes you suspicious? Would an actual townie intentionally avoid voting people with too many votes on them?
I'm saying that, all other things being equal, I can see scum as having a higher incentive to co-ordinate votes. It's not having multiple votes that is suspicious, it's following the voting habits of another. I admit, in the first round you can't treat it as a major tell, but if such behaviour persists through multiple rounds, then it becomes a lot stronger. Ideally, a townie would demonstrate their own line of reasoning that leads them to vote the same as someone else, but there is a problem that "I voted for X for the same reasons that Y did" may become a problem. After all, both of you (if you are both town) have the same information to work with, and both should arrive at the same conclusion. However, that does not consider the possibility of special roles. Special roles means that people do not have the same information, and so that reasoning is not guaranteed to be sound (even if you do not have a special role, you cannot guarrantee that the other person does not).
ed boy: Have you considered that the scum might want to seperate themselves to avoid detection, and as a result, intentionally vote for different players? Also, what do roles have to do with anything? The scum with the role could share intel with his/her partner, and that would be preferable for the both of them.
The problem is, you can apply that same logic to any situation to get paradoxes. If you have that "the best thing for scum to do is X", then doing X becomes a scummy action, and so if they do X they will attract attention, so doing X is not the best thing. Similarly, if you have "It is bad for scum to do Y", then Y becomes an unscummy action, and so scum will want to do it to avoid suspicion. No matter what conclusion you come to about the behaviour of scum players, you can use that same reasoning to conclude that they will do the opposite.

As for the roles, it means that the townies involved have different information available. The logic "I voted for X for the same reason as Y" requires all of the townies to definitely have access to the same information to work, which is not the case.

ed boy:  Of course not, that's a terrible idea.  We would be down to four townies and one scum by day's end, and the next morning it would be three town.  If we mislynch, we go to three townies, then two the next day because of the NK.  That situation is known as LYLO.  It'd be pretty easy to mislynch too: four dead townies who contributed nothing in terms of suspicions or cases, then the remaining three have to figure out who among them is scum.  Town mislynches frequently enough as it is.
It isn't such a horrible idea. In the first round, there are seven townies and two scum. If the town mislynches on the first day, which given the number of people involved would be likely, then they would start the next day with five townies and two scum, which is a worse ratio that the option I described would result in (three to one).

I also wonder why the FoS on IronyOwl; Why are you getting that suspicious of the Owl? Do you have any reads on anyone else?  If so, what are they and why aren't you questioning them?  If not, why not just vote for Irony at this stage instead, if that's your only suspect.
I'm also suspicious of backtobasesix, but lots of other people are. If I were to say "I suspect backtobasesix", then I wouldn't really be adding anything new to the discussion. I had a minor suspicion of IronyOwl, and nobody else did, so I put that up.

As for my new focus, yes, I vaguely noticed that a bunch of people were on basesix for lurking, but that's not something I actually considered. I just don't get how someone could not notice that the game has started. So I asked. It's probably going to be a staggeringly mundane and believable explanation, but there won't be any responses to gauge unless I ask something.
If you know what the answer's going to be, why are you asking the question? If his response is obvious, your question is unnecessary and you're wasting your time. Ask somebody else a question and stop filling our heads with nonsense.
He doesn't know what the answer's going to be - he can guess with high confidence, but there is always to possibility that his guess will be wrong, which is why it is a good idea to ask anyway.

unvote.
ed boy You seem to be asking a lot of questions, but don't seem to be following up on most of the questions you asked.
Well, that depends on what you consider to be following up. I ask people questions and I see their answers. Often, I am satisfied with the answers and I don't see the need to ask further questions. I might then leave that question, and ask a further question, which might seem like I'm abandoning the old question, but I'm not ignoring it.

EBWODP:
What's EDWODP? I didn't see it in the list of abbreviations.
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