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What level of military power should the US aim for?

World Police, we can take on the world, we could win a land war in Asia, god damn it!
- 24 (20.9%)
Matched Force, enough power to take on any other nation one on one and win
- 34 (29.6%)
Force Projection, enough to have influence around the world, but no real capability for a full on war in a foreign nation
- 10 (8.7%)
Fulfilling Treaty Obligations, no more
- 22 (19.1%)
Homeland Defense, no more
- 16 (13.9%)
Nuclear Deterrent is enough
- 4 (3.5%)
We need no military power at all
- 5 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 115


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Author Topic: The Military - Does the US actually need one?  (Read 12662 times)

Dsarker

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2011, 08:14:55 pm »

Again, same thing. US doesn't want China to get too much power. They don't want it getting Australia or Taiwan.

To that end, I don't think China is going to go to war with Australia. Taiwan is infinitely more likely, and even then, I think it's far more likely that China will just outlast the people over there who don't want Chinese rule, and assimilate the rest.

I know, but I was just using it as an example. I'd trust the UK and NZ to help us out, but the US? I don't think so.

Why do you think the US would want to see the Chinese, basically the only nation with a chance at defeating them, getting more nukes?
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Gamerlord

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2011, 08:23:43 pm »

Again, same thing. US doesn't want China to get too much power. They don't want it getting Australia or Taiwan.

To that end, I don't think China is going to go to war with Australia. Taiwan is infinitely more likely, and even then, I think it's far more likely that China will just outlast the people over there who don't want Chinese rule, and assimilate the rest.

I know, but I was just using it as an example. I'd trust the UK and NZ to help us out, but the US? I don't think so.

Why do you think the US would want to see the Chinese, basically the only nation with a chance at defeating them, getting more nukes?

It isn't a question if they would like it, but would they fight them and risk nuclear war?

Dsarker

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2011, 08:30:22 pm »

Again, same thing. US doesn't want China to get too much power. They don't want it getting Australia or Taiwan.

To that end, I don't think China is going to go to war with Australia. Taiwan is infinitely more likely, and even then, I think it's far more likely that China will just outlast the people over there who don't want Chinese rule, and assimilate the rest.

I know, but I was just using it as an example. I'd trust the UK and NZ to help us out, but the US? I don't think so.

Why do you think the US would want to see the Chinese, basically the only nation with a chance at defeating them, getting more nukes?

It isn't a question if they would like it, but would they fight them and risk nuclear war?

Considering that China doesn't have that many nukes to cause MAD, yes.
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You do not convince me. You rationalize your actions and because the result is favorable you become right.
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darkrider2

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2011, 08:51:52 pm »

The actual number of nukes isn't really important at this point, because nuclear war on any level is going to be a loss for both sides.
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Megaman

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2011, 08:56:17 pm »

Again, same thing. US doesn't want China to get too much power. They don't want it getting Australia or Taiwan.

To that end, I don't think China is going to go to war with Australia. Taiwan is infinitely more likely, and even then, I think it's far more likely that China will just outlast the people over there who don't want Chinese rule, and assimilate the rest.

I know, but I was just using it as an example. I'd trust the UK and NZ to help us out, but the US? I don't think so.

Why do you think the US would want to see the Chinese, basically the only nation with a chance at defeating them, getting more nukes?

It isn't a question if they would like it, but would they fight them and risk nuclear war?

Considering that China doesn't have that many nukes to cause MAD, yes.
YAH NEED ONLY UN'! Considering the fact MAD is when everyone launches...
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Dsarker

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2011, 09:02:12 pm »

No. MAD is a strategic nullifier of the benefits of using nuclear weapons. It happens between even two enemies if they both have the nuclear weapon stockpiles to cause the destruction of the other.
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Megaman

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2011, 09:19:40 pm »

Allow me to  rephrase myself. To create 'full scale apocalyptic MAD' only one would need to be launched, because other nations would tag along in the launches.
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counting

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #112 on: August 05, 2011, 09:29:16 pm »

Feels like we are highly likely to get abandoned, if U.S. cut their tie in Pacific military dominance. :'(
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Phmcw

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2011, 08:23:19 am »

Coming from someone who doesn't like the current US of A and oppose your foreign policy, you'd be stupid to drop your military supremacy. But there is a margin between "no army" and 17* the material of the rest of the world combined.
Beside a huge conventional army won't be efficient at unconventional war, and you use too many mercenary.
You could halve your military budget and still have total military domination, without even counting your allies as anything else than bases. (Said allies being historically among the most bellicose nations, and, combined, the second spender on military).

So yeah, less spending on strategic defense/attack forces would do wonders. Think of what you could do for america with ten % of your budget. And what you could do for the world.
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Grakelin

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #114 on: August 06, 2011, 10:10:39 am »

I wish Nikov was still here, so he could drop some sort of highly ideological, right-wing idea like "We should EXPAND the military", so I could post an argument against him instead of posting arguments against "OMG CHINA IS GOING TO INVADE THE ENTIRE PACIFIC". I miss that guy already.
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Gamerlord

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #115 on: August 06, 2011, 10:14:26 am »

He left? Damn.

Phmcw

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #116 on: August 06, 2011, 10:18:00 am »

He left? Damn.

He was banned for trolling. But I think we actually liked him trolling/bugging us.

But if you wish Grakelin, I could make right-wing posts for you to argue against. That wouldn't be the same thing I know but...

Ps : he would have disappointed you anyway : he was against wasting money to protect us European communist hippies, and wanted to let us fend the bloodthirsty Russian by ourselves..
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 10:20:28 am by Phmcw »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #117 on: August 06, 2011, 10:55:48 am »

     Here's the thing. The United States military, historically, was almost never prepared for the wars the country wound up fighting. The Barbary Coast conflict stretched the tiny military to the limit. The Quasi-War with France was a victory only because of the significant quality advantage of US ships over French ones. 1812 may have been a strategic victory, but the significant tactical losses caused by unreadiness (US ships proved to be much more than a match for anything smaller than a line-of-battle-ship, but were far too few in number to make much difference; while the US lost most of the land battles before a force of Regulars were trained, but won the last couple) were a heavy blow to national pride and limited the strategic victory. The Mexican War was an exception. The Civil War found neither side comprehending the power of new weapons and transportation, and both sides were unable to raise troops very quicly even with conscription because of the limited training capability. The Spanish-American war was another exception, but this was due almost exclusively to the waning might of the Spanish Empire. WWI is a little questionable because of the isolationist movement delaying the war to the point where American prepardness was of limited importance (which is a tragedy, US involment earlier probably would have ended the war much quicker, but I can elaborate on that later) WWII would have found the nation all-but-unarmed (in terms of air and land forces) were it not for Lend-Lease. Korea would never even have happened if Truman hadn't made massive drawdowns because of his confidence in the nuclear monopoly.


       Just because the risk of a war between Russia and mainland Europe is very ulikely now, the US is still committed by the North Atlantic Treaty to defend against such an attack now or in future. South Korea may be able to hold out against a North Korean assault, but the US is commited to defend against one. The Phillipenes have been skirmishing with China recently. (Note that these treaties are all one-way. The US is pledged to defend Europe, but Europe is not pledged to defend the US.) Thanks to a history of unreadiness, modern US doctrine is to be able to fight any two of these wars simultaneously The pace of modern warfare dictates that size-ups are not an option. You have to go to war with the army you have, if you don't have one, the other guy wins. No matter how powerful your carrier is, if it's cruising off the coast of Saudi Arabia mounting airstrikes into Lybia or Iran in support of UN operations, it's not going to keep Kim from dashing south across the DMZ. That's why the US has so many carriers. As for ground forces, despite the US's absolute numerical superiority over any likely foe, it's almost a guarantee that forces in theatre (wherever that theatre might be) are going to be facing superior numbers in the crucial opening days of a conflict. To put things bluntly, unless dozens of treaties are renegotiated, the US literally cannot reduce its forces very much.

    That's not to say that cuts cannot or should not be made. Cancelling two of the versions of the F-23 would save quite a lot of money, as would cancelling the B-3. Streamlining the aquisition process is a good idea.
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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #118 on: August 06, 2011, 12:20:41 pm »

The South China Sea problem is quite a sensitive one since the end of WWII. (And it's just a name since it's south of China, doesn't means it belongs to China). Recently it's been a problem in our media, cause our government's pro-China stand since 2008 election has made a interesting international affair that on the surface, Taiwan should HELP the China to defend it's claim in South China Sea. It will be quite ironic since most of Taiwan's military force used U.S. sold weapon and training. It's like asking someone to pouch itself using its own left hand.
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Lagslayer

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Re: The Military - Does the US actually need one?
« Reply #119 on: August 06, 2011, 12:31:00 pm »

I'm rather surprised how top-heavy the poll is.
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