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Author Topic: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It  (Read 55663 times)

The13thRonin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #570 on: March 17, 2014, 10:57:37 pm »

Vaguey back on topic.

Do the people who played the game at release (and for a few patches after that) think the game is significantly better now? Please only reply to this if you're playing it currently in the new patch/update, be the opinions for or against it (and whether you're a long term player, just started, or a recent returner is slightly relevant).

I've stated why I didn't enjoy D3. Have there been enough differences made in ,leveling, progression and loot stats/variety in the last year or so to make me think of repurchasing it? I currently figure "no", but I'm basing that on gut feeling and previous experience. I felt it wasn't good back in the beginning, I still feel that it's not, but I might have missed what's drawn some people back to it (even a low price tag to retry it is a valid reason).

I'd like to hear current player's opinions, positive or negative.

The title of the thread is WHY YOU SHOULDN'T BUY IT.

How is anything relating to it being a bad game off topic?

What do you feel the topic is?

-snipped for length-

Except the almost 9000 other gamers specifically gamers who enjoy the Diablo franchise who agree with me. I would put forward that that fairly clearly establishes that it was not a good game.

I'm taking a look at how many people are on in the Americas, in public games, right now. This is ignoring everyone who isn't playing right this second, or in private games, or playing below level cap, or on the European/Asian servers, or is farming for Ubers keys.
(T1: 1372 people, T2: 1088, T3: 1325, T4: 801, T5: 182, T6: 175)

Right now, 4,943 people think the game is fun enough to be playing public games on one (of three) server clusters, even after all those restrictions I can't look up. So, more than half the amount of people who ever downvoted on metacritic are playing as we speak.

Seems like a few people think it's pretty good. We're back to "people like different things."

I'm apologize in advance for double-posting to reply to sambojin, but I don't want to post a reply directly to him at the end of this one.

Sure... Some people like things that offer a good gaming experience and stay true to the franchise's roots... Other people like different things... Like... I don't know... Pain and frustration?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:59:25 pm by The13thRonin »
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sambojin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #571 on: March 17, 2014, 11:07:18 pm »

Why do you think my first post was all griping? But this is bay12. People don't just play games here because they're dumb. There's a hell of a lot of great games to choose from. The people playing them can even write proper sentences.

So why are people playing? It's not because they're stupid or fanbois or don't know about other games. They've probably got fairly valid reasons. Hell, I still play D2 sometimes because it's nice to just turn off my brain and click-kill things to death. Good reason? No. Valid reason to play an old game? Yes. So is D3 significantly better, and if so, why?
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The13thRonin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #572 on: March 17, 2014, 11:09:21 pm »

Why do you think my first post was all griping? But this is bay12. People don't just play games here because they're dumb. There's a hell of a lot of great games to choose from. The people playing them can even write proper sentences.

So why are people playing? It's not because they're stupid or fanbois or don't know about other games. They've probably got fairly valid reasons. Hell, I still play D2 sometimes because it's nice to just turn off my brain and click-kill things to death. Good reason? No. Valid reason to play an old game? Yes. So is D3 significantly better, and if so, why?

Well you know my stance on D3.
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #573 on: March 17, 2014, 11:58:17 pm »

Vaguey back on topic.

Do the people who played the game at release (and for a few patches after that) think the game is significantly better now? Please only reply to this if you're playing it currently in the new patch/update, be the opinions for or against it (and whether you're a long term player, just started, or a recent returner is slightly relevant).

I've stated why I didn't enjoy D3. Have there been enough differences made in ,leveling, progression and loot stats/variety in the last year or so to make me think of repurchasing it? I currently figure "no", but I'm basing that on gut feeling and previous experience. I felt it wasn't good back in the beginning, I still feel that it's not, but I might have missed what's drawn some people back to it (even a low price tag to retry it is a valid reason).

I'd like to hear current player's opinions, positive or negative.

I played enough on release to get one class to Act II in (what was then) Inferno. It was grossly imbalanced and I kinda burned out getting all the other classes to 60, then when I started bashing against the poor itemization and realized that the auction house was more than optional, I put the game down.

I played again once they brought out the first big re-balancing of Inferno difficulty to even up the difficulty curve. It was closer to acceptable then, but the itemization still sucked and AH inflation made self-finding gear impossible, so I didn't stick with it long. When I heard their promises of "loot 2.0" and the changes for the expansion, I thought they were pretty decent in theory, and booting the old team lead sounded promising enough. So I came back a week or two ago to try out the new stuff that came out before Reaper of Souls.

Here's your caveats about me and why I play the game/my opinions may differ from others here, followed by lists of the current bad (and good!) of what the game has to offer.


That said, here's how I feel about the new patch (and Reaper of Souls-specific items will be marked with (RoS) to keep them separate)

Spoiler: The Bad (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: The Good (click to show/hide)

Summary: I don't have a nostalgic attachment to D2, because I know it was a buggy, broken mess. The latest version of D3 feels more "right" to me in the strictest gameplay sense. I feel it hits the right mindless slay-n-loot balance while still having more depth and theorycraft potential than some other imitators (TL2 comes to mind. Haven't played PoE yet.) I feel the current patch hits close to the gameplay mechanic core of Diablo, far more than the "wanna be different" release state did.

If there's something specific you want more details or clarification on, feel free to ask.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Devastator

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #574 on: March 18, 2014, 12:13:26 am »

I do want you to elaborate on the gear checks present in 'level appropriate areas' in diablo III.  The biggest irritation of it to me is how gear checks seemed to dominate gameplay.. either you had enough weapon DPS and you slayed everything, or you didn't have enough weapon DPS and you can't make progress and die.  There seems to be little room for the player to matter.

I do agree with you as to the issues with skills in D2..  however, since you aren't in continual competition with gear checks, having a sub-optimal character didn't matter.  You could go with broken characters or variant playthroughs, and find your experience to be quite different.  There's also a lot of mods that solve the skill issues.  There doesn't seem to be any real different experiences available in diablo 3.

To be honest, you never needed a pre-approved setup to have fun in D2.  In D3, there are no non pre-approved setups.  You progress according to word of god, and your character is based entirely on the numbers on the gear that you have.  That's.. not an improvement.  There have been some improvements since release, but I'd much rather play another character for my chosen D2 setup.
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nenjin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #575 on: March 18, 2014, 12:54:22 am »

Quote
Do the people who played the game at release (and for a few patches after that) think the game is significantly better now?

Yes. Although the BS starts to stack up around Torment 4.
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #576 on: March 18, 2014, 01:13:07 am »

@ Devastator:
The example I was thinking of with gearchecks was this: In the Inferno-level content there were two goals... enough survivability and DPS to move past Act 1. My Demon Hunter at the time did more than enough damage to kill things, but due to inherent weaknesses of the class, some things could just auto-kill her in gear that should have been livable at that damage tier. I think this problem matches the one you're describing.

The current re-tool has evened out the monster damage and increased player survivability in favor of more tactical play.  In the same areas my DH was getting slain from offscreen before, she's now very playable in the same gear as long as I'm paying attention.

Likewise, the difficulty checks are decided by the player this time, rather than have progression be locked to the Normal/NM/Hell modes as they were before. It's completely possible to leave the game on normal difficulty and power through the whole game punching demons through walls, if you wish.


I'm not sure where the D3 pre-approved part is coming from, unless you're not aware of "elective mode" that let's you put any skill in almost any slot on D3's hotbar. If that's the case, look under gameplay options and select it. Yeah, it's stupid to have that be optional, turned off by default, and hidden... but it is there and you only have to turn it on once.

Was that a comment on the skill runes being unlocked by level?
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

The13thRonin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #577 on: March 18, 2014, 02:29:42 am »

That said, the skill-tree system was more restrictive than D3's, simply because you had to take low-tier skills to get top-tier skills, and there just weren't as many skills available in total. D2's sorceress has 30 skills, including passive abilities. D3's wizard has 15 passives (18 with RoS) and 25 active skills (125 counting rune variants, not counting un-runed base versions. add 1 and 5 to each for RoS). You can take any combination of 3 passives (4 in RoS) and 6 active skills. Granted D2 had 16 hotkeys, I'm having trouble thinking of a build that regularly used more than the 9 or 10 abilities D3 offers.

Less challenging does not equal less restrictive.

If they removed the need for clicking on monsters to attack and the game automatically did this for you would that make it less restrictive?
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #578 on: March 18, 2014, 02:50:23 am »

I have no idea what you're actually getting at. Could you use an actual example with real things like numbers instead of some bizarre logical fallacy to illustrate your point?
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

The13thRonin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #579 on: March 18, 2014, 02:54:56 am »

I have no idea what you're actually getting at. Could you use an actual example with real things like numbers instead of some bizarre logical fallacy to illustrate your point?

Explaining that removing a core feature is not 'less restrictive' and then providing a perfectly adequate example of removing something else core to the games experience to make it 'easier' to play is a 'bizarre logical fallacy' now?
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #580 on: March 18, 2014, 02:59:29 am »

There weren't skill trees in Diablo 1, so it's not a core feature for the franchise (and thus, stripping out spell books for class-specific talent trees is more restrictive than D1). You still haven't answered my direct question about how D2's skill system with synergies and prerequisites is less restrictive than a freeform system like D3's. Back up your argument with something concrete?

Otherwise we're still on "different people like different things."
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

The13thRonin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #581 on: March 18, 2014, 03:04:29 am »

There weren't skill trees in Diablo 1, so it's not a core feature for the franchise (and thus, stripping out spell books for class-specific talent trees is more restrictive than D1). You still haven't answered my direct question about how D2's skill system with synergies and prerequisites is less restrictive than a freeform system like D3's. Back up your argument with something concrete?

Otherwise we're still on "different people like different things."

Nice try putting words in my mouth. I never said D2 was 'less restrictive' those are the buzz words you came up with. D2 is a better game for having a fixed skill tree because it actually offers the possibility in multiplayer of having the same class in a party still bringing something different to the table. For example a Necromancer who is specced in summoning being supplemented by one who is specced in curses. In D3 it's all a horrible hodgepodge of vanilla sameness.

Secondly you're right that D1 didn't have that... That's what sequels are meant to do improve things and not strip them away.
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #582 on: March 18, 2014, 03:14:59 am »

There weren't skill trees in Diablo 1, so it's not a core feature for the franchise (and thus, stripping out spell books for class-specific talent trees is more restrictive than D1). You still haven't answered my direct question about how D2's skill system with synergies and prerequisites is less restrictive than a freeform system like D3's. Back up your argument with something concrete?

Otherwise we're still on "different people like different things."

Nice try putting words in my mouth. I never said D2 was 'less restrictive' those are the buzz words you came up with. D2 is a better game for having a fixed skill tree because it actually offers the possibility in multiplayer of having the same class in a party still bringing something different to the table. For example a Necromancer who is specced in summoning being supplemented by one who is specced in curses. In D3 it's all a horrible hodgepodge of vanilla sameness.

Secondly you're right that D1 didn't have that... That's what sequels are meant to do improve things and not strip them away.

Then tell me, as precisely as you possibly can, what this

That said, the skill-tree system was more restrictive than D3's, simply because you had to take low-tier skills to get top-tier skills, and there just weren't as many skills available in total. D2's sorceress has 30 skills, including passive abilities. D3's wizard has 15 passives (18 with RoS) and 25 active skills (125 counting rune variants, not counting un-runed base versions. add 1 and 5 to each for RoS). You can take any combination of 3 passives (4 in RoS) and 6 active skills. Granted D2 had 16 hotkeys, I'm having trouble thinking of a build that regularly used more than the 9 or 10 abilities D3 offers.

Less challenging does not equal less restrictive.

If they removed the need for clicking on monsters to attack and the game automatically did this for you would that make it less restrictive?

means. Also since it's apparently a sticking point, let me help you out a bit. Here's a definition of restrictive (which you used at me, so...)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/restrictive

Definition 3 fits what I'm trying to get across. Expressing or implying restriction or limitation of application, as terms, expressions, etc.

To make it absolutely clear from this point forward, I am stating that Diablo 2's skill tree system, with it's pre-requisite skill points and synergy system is more limiting of character diversity than Diablo 3's free-form skill allocation system.

Are we on the same page yet?

Edit: for spelling errors
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 03:16:48 am by Darkmere »
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

The13thRonin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #583 on: March 18, 2014, 03:16:43 am »

I said Diablo 3 was NOT less restrictive.

I did not say Diablo 2 was less restrictive because I don't find it to be restrictive at all.
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #584 on: March 18, 2014, 03:26:24 am »

I said Diablo 3 was NOT less restrictive.

I did not say Diablo 2 was less restrictive because I don't find it to be restrictive at all.

Uhm... okay double negatives mean... Diablo 3 is restrictive, okay.

And here's the issue. Diablo 2 was restrictive of character building because, according to the metric I laid out in the post that you initially replied to (the one with the spoiler about D2's skill tree mechanics, to be clear), end-game content was balanced around synergy-boosted primary-killer spells (take Frozen Orb as an example), which required a specific allocation of points to be effective in the endgame. 20 points in frozen orb was far less effective than 20 points in frozen orb, 20 points in glacial spike, AND 20 points in ice bolt. That leaves you some points leftover for cold mastery, one in teleport, and a few odds and ends. The problem with it is, nothing that boosted Frozen Orb was as efficient at killing as Frozen Orb, so the points were entirely devoted to skills you'd never want to use. That's a restriction; if you want to have the effective orb, you're pigeonholed into it. All the endgame Hell farming spots were build with synergies in mind, so not taking them made playing tedious, or prohibitive.

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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.
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