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Author Topic: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It  (Read 55736 times)

nenjin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #120 on: August 04, 2011, 04:19:31 pm »

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I see where you're coming from, buying preference-wise. I guess the question is, do you feel the game will be worth playing, in spite of the issues you don't like? hard to guess, at this point. I'm not sure how one would go about confirming Blizzard's item drop manipulation, though.

I do think it will be worth playing based purely on its own merits. That's why I'm torn. I've been interested in the game itself for years, despite some changes I don't like. And just like with EA and BF3, Blizzard/Activision decided to take a title they know is going to be a hit, and use it to ram through a lot of changes in how they deliver their content and how we connect to it. I'm buying BF3 and signing on to Origin with the same sense that I'm getting stuff rammed down my throat because a publisher has a great game and is using it as leverage.

If I didn't care about D3 as a game, I wouldn't even be in this thread, rest assured.

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They also won't be taking a percentage share of auction sales, just a flat cut. Part of the reason for that is so there's little incentive for them to artificially manipulate prices.

Direct price manipulation would be much harder to achieve. Were they to do anything, I'd see them controlling the supply rate to artificially increase (or decrease) demand, which has its own effect on price. If they're only taking a flat commission on sales (multiple times per sale) then it's all about increasing the volume of sales. Which favors lower prices and higher supply. Which to me is better than artificially manipulating demand upwards, at least in the context of a game world where we only have to invest once to get an unlimited return.

Like I said, this has the potential to be complicated enough it requires an economist to sort out. And I would bet the next paycheck I get that Blizzard has at least one on staff.

I'm still very interested in hearing their actual method. How can they charge a flat fee that both accounts for bottom-dollar sales and top-dollar sales at the same time? Their take has to progressive in some form, otherwise their flat rate would eventually end up being more than some items would sell for. Unless the Blizzard take ends up as some sort of sales tax that basically gets applied to the overall cost of your item. In which case you might buy a sword for $1, while 50 cents of that goes to the seller, and the other 50 is made up of Blizzard's take from your sale, his sale and the transaction itself.

Phew. Remember when we didn't even have to think about shit like this?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 04:26:27 pm by nenjin »
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #121 on: August 05, 2011, 01:05:30 am »

I've also been disappointed in the direction the Diablo franchise has moved in general. It's gone from a fantastic horror/fantasy into an epic fantasy. In the first game you actually had to think about what you were doing, how you were fighting. A gang of regular goatmen was a threat that you had to properly set yourself up to take out. In 2 you just spammed a bunch of powers and wiped them out. Elites *might* cause you problems and boss fight could be tough. But most of the game was spent smacking monsters with very little threat to you. It looks like 3 is going to be even more-so. How many creatures can you wipe out in one attack? Let's find out!

I've always considered the original Diablo to lack many of the features that made D2 better, but also to lack pretty much all of the problems that made it worse. D2 is a lootgrindy clickfest revolving around spergtastic and highly item-oriented character build developing.

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"Some players might get discouraged because all the work they put into single player doesn't carry over to multi-player"?. Ridiculous. And to a large extent dishonest, which disgusts me.

Modern game design is built for idiots, or rather for people who literally feel no need to put any sort of thought or investment into their entertainment. It's made for as large a demographic as possible to pick up a controller, push buttons, and get rewards. This is the kind of ultra-mass-market tripe that worries about people getting discouraged if they don't have giant arrows pointing in the exact direction of everything they have to do at any given moment.

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Will I get the game? I don't know. Maybe, if my friends really enjoy it. But I'm not going to pre-order it and I may hold off for a long time.

This isn't really a comment about you, but intelligent consumer behavior is it a really, really, really low point if "I won't buy this product before it even exists" counts as abnormally skeptical.
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #122 on: August 05, 2011, 01:59:02 am »

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I've always considered the original Diablo to lack many of the features that made D2 better, but also to lack pretty much all of the problems that made it worse. D2 is a lootgrindy clickfest revolving around spergtastic and highly item-oriented character build developing.

To an extent I agree (that was my original thought about the skill trees), although not on the details. In particular, I think Diablo 1 was every bit as item oriented as 2, or more, as skills depended on finding books in the dungeon. The thing is that this was not such a bad thing. There were only three classes, but you saw a lot of variety between them (well, in theory. In practice the widespread dupes and hacks made arch-angels staves of apocalypse with 255 charges common).

Now, D2' characters are not as clonic as I originally thought when I played it, but the problem still stands, and I think the grindfest comes from there, in fact. As it is creating a long-term surviving char in Diablo 2 is about rote-killing monsters (Bloody Runs over and over) and storing your skill points to invest them as soon as possible in two or three skills. And you do this following a few character builds which are rather hard to stray from.

Then there's the waypoint system in Diablo 2, which is annoying and reminiscent of console games. Diablo 1's save system was far superior, IMO, and it occurs to me as I type this that perhaps the waypoint system was one early attempt to cater at the online grindfest community at the expense of roguelike aspects in Diablo...


--------------------

If you ask me they should have expanded on the roguelike aspects of Diablo 1, instead of going more arcade. Keep the base character and skill system as it was, only add more backgrounds, maybe even expand on DIablo 1's character special abilities and make it into a proto-skill tree (but with the book system still in place as the major skill system), and set this on a larger world, in which you have to explore to find out stuff, and travel from settlement to settlement.

Given the trends in gaming I doubt we'll see anything like that, though. (outside indies, that is.)
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #123 on: August 05, 2011, 03:00:08 am »

In particular, I think Diablo 1 was every bit as item oriented as 2, or more, as skills depended on finding books in the dungeon.

This is both true and not true. Yes, you needed spellbooks, but they were relatively available; you didn't have to grind for them. You could buy them at Adria's when you have money, or find them in the dungeon fairly easily most of the time (the early levels have a bunch of bookshelves in case you're unlucky). This is item-oriented in the sense that you upgrade yourself using items, but not in the sense that you have to spend a lot of effort getting them; you get items while playing the game, as opposed to playing the game just to get the items. There were few ultra-rare spellbooks, and you weren't killing the same monsters or delving into the same areas over and over again to get them.

When it comes to actual equipment, it's obvious that D1 is less item-grindy for a number of reasons. First, unique items were less all-powerful, so finding specific ones wasn't that important (surviving without The Right Equipment in D2:LoD is quite hard on higher difficulty). Secondly, the modifiers you found on items were fewer in number (1-2 per item, maybe a couple more on uniques, whereas in D2 you had much, much more) and often lesser in power, so they didn't matter as much; having a shitty axe instead of an uber-axe-of-the-powergamer didn't outright ruin your character. Third, the good items you could find were ones you could actually find through normal gameplay, nor was there even an efficient way to grind in the first place. In D2, there are very rare items that everybody wants and that don't drop often and there are certain places to grind in order to do this. In D1, those grinding options don't really exist very much even if you wanted to do that, and it's not necessary to do so anyway, because pretty much anything can drop anything assuming you're at the right dungeon level... and like I said, which items you have doesn't matter as much to begin with.

Basically: In D1, it's completely feasible to just play through the dungeon, gather up the items you find, and rely on those even if your luck isn't great (supplementing it with stuff you get from Wirt). Diablo II starts off this way (in Act I Normal you still might actually pick up a white non-magical item! Wow!) but quickly diverges from that, damn near forcing the player to replay boss fights until they get enough Nice Neat Shit to survive later on.

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If you ask me they should have expanded on the roguelike aspects of Diablo 1, instead of going more arcade. Keep the base character and skill system as it was, only add more backgrounds, maybe even expand on DIablo 1's character special abilities and make it into a proto-skill tree (but with the book system still in place as the major skill system), and set this on a larger world, in which you have to explore to find out stuff, and travel from settlement to settlement.

I can totally understand the design decisions that went into D2, or at least I can see how they could have happened, without them necessarily being aware of how they would affect the game. I could see them having thought "Unique items and random magic drops are interesting; let's expand upon that with item sets, 'rares' with more modifiers, more interesting uniques, item sockets, and things like that", for example, without necessarily realizing how much that would change the very gameplay paradigm they were dealing with until it already started happening.
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #124 on: August 05, 2011, 03:50:52 am »

So... you can earn real cash by playing the game using this system? Somehow it seems bizarre.

Chinese gold farmers will rejoice though, I guess.

Probably pretty good for them, as the individuals can distance themselves from gold selling organizations a bit and pocket the money themselves.

I think this innovation in itself is worth supporting Diablo III, to be honest. I think this is actually a really good idea. I mean, if you've ever played an MMO game, you know how much people that have collected millions of plats (platinum coins, usually the highest tier currency in a game) or whatever will spend on a unique item.

Now imagine instead of receiving 30k plat you could get 5 bucks from a $millionaire.

EDIT: You know what, I think I might give this game a try if I can see a profit in it in the long term. After all, I like video games and if it pays for itself why not invest in it?

EDIT2: All I have to say is if the company lets us down on the market then I will be sadly disappointed. However, since they make a profit if it's successful I have moderate hopes for it, at least until someone figures out a way to throw a wrench in the works which I hope they are keeping eagle eyes out for.

EDIT3: Also, here's food for thought. Basically what Blizzard is doing is selling you the capital goods to setup your own little factory to make internet goods to sell to bring wealth to your local area. I salute them for the genius in this idea. Michigan may have hope after all.

EDIT4: Now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if I should be promoting it as much as I am. The more poor bastards like myself trying to make a living off playing video games there are the more the supply of items there will be on the market. I hope characters are diverse enough so that there are a ton of different items and item tags and such. In addition there will always be useless items in a randomly generated thing, so maybe they could make a crafting system so that most items have at least some value (maybe a penny or a fraction for worthless crap that could be salvaged in a crafting system so that it can be turned into more valuable loot) or something.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 04:19:28 am by Duuvian »
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #125 on: August 05, 2011, 04:18:00 am »

EDIT: You know what, I think I might give this game a try if I can see a profit in it in the long term. After all, I like video games and if it pays for itself why not invest in it?

Problem: Everyone else will have the same idea you do, and Chinese gold-farmers will overrun the market and crowd you out of it anyway.
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #126 on: August 05, 2011, 04:20:01 am »

EDIT: You know what, I think I might give this game a try if I can see a profit in it in the long term. After all, I like video games and if it pays for itself why not invest in it?

Problem: Everyone else will have the same idea you do, and Chinese gold-farmers will overrun the market and crowd you out of it anyway.

Edit4

Also I think with the unemployment rate here they're the ones likely to get crowded out haha. Exchange rates only go so far.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 04:23:04 am by Duuvian »
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2011, 04:22:10 am »

Oh, right.


Personally, I think the entire problem of buying items (or at least most of it) would be solved by making the gameplay (including the early and middle game) actually fun instead of just a route to gain new items ad nauseum. Wouldn't that be nice?
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #128 on: August 05, 2011, 04:24:22 am »

Oh, right.


Personally, I think the entire problem of buying items (or at least most of it) would be solved by making the gameplay (including the early and middle game) actually fun instead of just a route to gain new items ad nauseum. Wouldn't that be nice?

Have you manipulated many mmo markets? I've done several. It's quite fun.
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #129 on: August 05, 2011, 04:25:14 am »

That may be the case, but manipulating an online economy is not the same as playing Diablo. Or at least it sure as hell shouldn't be.
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #130 on: August 05, 2011, 04:30:14 am »

Ninja'd before I even hit reply.

I don't think common items (gems, recipes, run of the mill gear) are going to be profitable for the average Joe to farm up and post for cash. The market will probably be flooded with volume from everyone trying to make a quick buck or two, driving prices and profit margins to almost nil, except for the rarest best items with the best random mods. Those good items will be so expensive because they are rare, so odds are VERY low that people trying to find them explicitly to sell, will ever find anything worth selling.

I don't mind Blizzard using a system to part impatient suckers from their money. Maybe a bit of added income with help bring Diablo out of the redheaded stepchild franchise it's been for years. But I won't be buying items with RMT, and I'm sure there's plenty of reasonable people like me who'll be playing the in-game-gold auction house for crafting money.
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #131 on: August 05, 2011, 04:33:24 am »

I suppose manipulate isn't the right word. When I say manipulate I don't mean go outside of the game and try to influence prices through forums and game chat messages (although that plays a part if it's useful I won't lie)

What I mean by manipulate is competition combined with the above.

By competition I mean simply beating other's prices on the game's given auctionhouse through using the tools given to you, such as being able to search the auctionhouse and see what other's deals are.
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Duuvian

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #132 on: August 05, 2011, 04:38:12 am »

Ninja'd before I even hit reply.

I don't think common items (gems, recipes, run of the mill gear) are going to be profitable for the average Joe to farm up and post for cash. The market will probably be flooded with volume from everyone trying to make a quick buck or two, driving prices and profit margins to almost nil, except for the rarest best items with the best random mods. Those good items will be so expensive because they are rare, so odds are VERY low that people trying to find them explicitly to sell, will ever find anything worth selling.

I don't mind Blizzard using a system to part impatient suckers from their money. Maybe a bit of added income with help bring Diablo out of the redheaded stepchild franchise it's been for years. But I won't be buying items with RMT, and I'm sure there's plenty of reasonable people like me who'll be playing the in-game-gold auction house for crafting money.

Yeah, that's probably true. I suppose I should learn more about the system before declaring it the new hope for unemployed people.

Still, it's more or less a leap forward and something I've always wished I could do in a game. If it's a fun game with the possibility of earning a few pennys here and there until you make that one find that catapults you 5 or 10 dollars forward, that's a good game design if you ask me.

EDIT: Also since it's a self contained market and since Blizzard takes a cut of all sales, eventually (I'd hope) they'd have their own little fund to do their own market manipulation with to correct any imbalances. My hope is that they would use it logically and keep that self contained until the market finally dies due to something better or from other businesses trying the same model.

EDIT2: Basically what that means is that depending on how big Blizzard's heart is, they might use some of those profits to pay the players. I'd guess anonymously by making player accounts if prices need to be boosted to encourage more participation.

Or to keep it in the system some sort of store credit, although at that point it starts to retrograde I think and it would be best as a last resort if the first option bleeds too much cash. Actually that would be a terrible idea, pulling the cloth over the consumers head so to speak, what I've crossed out anyways.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 07:04:37 am by Duuvian »
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Levi

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #133 on: August 05, 2011, 10:29:57 am »

Blizzard responds about requiring an internet connection:

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2011/08/04/blizzard-vp-surprised-over-fan-reaction-to-diablo-3-online-requirements/


Basically, they aren't going to change it.  I think they could have come up with a better reason than "It makes it possible to go from singleplayer to multiplayer without starting a new character".
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #134 on: August 05, 2011, 10:39:35 am »

That's a ridiculous excuse... He even asks "Who would want that?!" to why not have a completely offline single player mode... Newsflash, retards, everyone who fucking complained about it and reverberated all over gaming forums and sites.

Fucking dumbasses.
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