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[Max White]

How am I supposed to know?  You're the one asking these useless questions.  I assume you mean "Why do you think my questions are worthless?".

I'm gonna turn this question around, since it's difficult to prove an absence.  Instead, I will ask: What good have any of your questions done so far?  You've thrown out a lot of them, which has created plenty of noise, but no meaningful exchanges with anyone.  Your vote in particular is very poor and not really based on anything (except putting words into someone else's mouth and misinterpreting a sarcastic answer, as far as I can tell).

So... You say my questions are worthless, then can't tell me why? And instead of answering you decide to turn the question around.
Well, I now have a stick to measure Crown against, I have a better chance of being able to read Vector assuming she is kind enough to keep us all up to date with her life, and I have a suspect.

When you call something worthless, perhaps you should be able to say why, instead of just saying what ever you want then expecting others to have to disprove your claims. It is interesting that you are doing a similar thing to Kilakan, demanding he explain he's own value, rather than you doing something constructive and building your own arguments.

What was the most recent game you played town in?

[lordnincompoop]

This is all I have time for. Sorry.

lordnincompoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop, where are yoooooou???!!!???

Missed me, have you?

I was alternating between internetless, writing and AFK for a long while. I only just found out that this started, actually.

lordnincompoop, let's say you're some flavor of SK. What would you look for in a Night 1 night kill target?

Somebody that is either already on to me, or somebody that has a more-than-decent chance to do so.

Alternatively, somebody with a dangerous role, but I tend not to take that into account as much.

kilakan.  Let's say there's a one-shot daykill floating around.

Why exactly shouldn't you be the target?

This sounds like that shitty old burden of proof question, Leafsnail.  What were you hoping to get out of it?

FoSes so early in the game? Care to explain?

[Leafsnail]

So... You say my questions are worthless, then can't tell me why? And instead of answering you decide to turn the question around.

I've told you: your questions have created nothing but useless noise.  It's difficult to demonstrate the absence of worth because there isn't much to quote except all the completely useless things you've said (and everyone can already see those).  I suppose if you need a more explicit explanation I could point to the fact that most of your questions aren't followed up, or at least are never followed up in a way that could conceivably produce any kind of read.  For instance:

Crown: Hmm, well I have been led to believe that the IRC games work a little differently to the normal ones, do you think that is the case? And if so, do you think it will affect your play?

You previously asked him a useless question, which you ignored the answer to.  You then give another vague reply that doesn't really follow on from what CoF said and drop it.  There's no way it gave you any kind of read on him, and you didn't even apply enough pressure to have a remote chance of getting a read.

Well, I now have a stick to measure Crown against, I have a better chance of being able to read Vector assuming she is kind enough to keep us all up to date with her life, and I have a suspect.

This "stick to measure crown against" seems ridiculously vague and should be unnecessary unless you actually start seeing newbtells on him.  The Vector point is silly since the answer was too vague to achieve anything like what you're boasting of here.  Your "suspect" came about by you forcing words into his mouth and misinterpreting a sarcastic confession.

When you call something worthless, perhaps you should be able to say why, instead of just saying what ever you want then expecting others to have to disprove your claims. It is interesting that you are doing a similar thing to Kilakan, demanding he explain he's own value, rather than you doing something constructive and building your own arguments.

I did, and you just skimmed over it.  I'll say it again: Your questions are useless noise/ timewasting, and don't give you reads on anyone.  The only person you've arguably got a read off is the guy whose position you horribly misrepresented (not as a result of your random questions, incidentally).

What was the most recent game you played town in?

See this?  Timewaster question.  You could look it up.

I think it was probably Not-So-Beginner Mafia: Panda Edition.

[Vector]

FoS because I can't vote two people simultaneously.

For the record, I think Max is town.  I need to think a bit more about everything else.

[Jim Groovester]

Unvote lordnincompoop.

Do you have any thoughts on any other players?

[Vector]

Who is the "you" in that sentence?  Me?

[Jim Groovester]

No, lordnincompoop.

[Vector]

Bah, sorry.

[Max White]

So... You say my questions are worthless, then can't tell me why? And instead of answering you decide to turn the question around.

I've told you: your questions have created nothing but useless noise.  It's difficult to demonstrate the absence of worth because there isn't much to quote except all the completely useless things you've said (and everyone can already see those).  I suppose if you need a more explicit explanation I could point to the fact that most of your questions aren't followed up, or at least are never followed up in a way that could conceivably produce any kind of read.  For instance:

Crown: Hmm, well I have been led to believe that the IRC games work a little differently to the normal ones, do you think that is the case? And if so, do you think it will affect your play?

You previously asked him a useless question, which you ignored the answer to.  You then give another vague reply that doesn't really follow on from what CoF said and drop it.  There's no way it gave you any kind of read on him, and you didn't even apply enough pressure to have a remote chance of getting a read.

First I asked Crown if he was new, and when he said he played mostly on the IRC I asked it that mattered. So yes, there was follow up. The point wasn't to try and force a read, it was to find out if he had played before. I wanted a quick assessment of he's skill level so that I knew what to expect from anything down the track. What, it is bad if I try and put a context to peoples actions?
So there was a question, that gave me useful information, with a follow up to clarify. Seems useful to me.

This "stick to measure crown against" seems ridiculously vague and should be unnecessary unless you actually start seeing newbtells on him.  The Vector point is silly since the answer was too vague to achieve anything like what you're boasting of here.  Your "suspect" came about by you forcing words into his mouth and misinterpreting a sarcastic confession.

I would much rather know about a players skill level before I start getting scum tells that could also be newbie tells. That way there is a lot less bias, and things are more clear cut. Why do you object to me finding out if he was a good player or not?
Also, my suspect came out when I asked him a question, and he gave an awful response.

I did, and you just skimmed over it.  I'll say it again: Your questions are useless noise/ timewasting, and don't give you reads on anyone.  The only person you've arguably got a read off is the guy whose position you horribly misrepresented (not as a result of your random questions, incidentally).

My questions were good, so screw you! Sure, they didn't instantly make somebody admit 'Oh noes, your talking to me, you must know I'm scum!' but it would be stupid to expect as much. Anyway, if he was horribly misrepresented, why didn't he say so until after I voted him? I did ask him to clarify on both points.

See this?  Timewaster question.  You could look it up.

I think it was probably Not-So-Beginner Mafia: Panda Edition.

Time waster? Is there an index of all games with players and roles somewhere that I am unaware of? I mean I know about the notiable games archive, but that is hardly every game.

[Max White]

Leafsnail: Now that I think of it, what has follow up got to do with it? You deemed my questions worthless before anybody had a chance to answer. As such, how could you tell what I would or would not follow up on? And how could you tell how people could react to my questions before they had even shown up yet? Tell me why you think my questions were worthless without referring to events that happened after you made these claims.

And further more...

Your "suspect" came about by you forcing words into his mouth and misinterpreting a sarcastic confession.

If you think I am putting words into peoples mouths, why didn't you bring this up until after Josh tried to claim that? Why are you parroting him?

[Leafsnail]

First I asked Crown if he was new, and when he said he played mostly on the IRC I asked it that mattered. So yes, there was follow up. The point wasn't to try and force a read, it was to find out if he had played before. I wanted a quick assessment of he's skill level so that I knew what to expect from anything down the track. What, it is bad if I try and put a context to peoples actions?
So there was a question, that gave me useful information, with a follow up to clarify. Seems useful to me.

A useless followup from a useless question.  Your "context" could have been provided much better by asking a meaningful reading question.  In any case, there were 5 other useless questions you asked along with that one (and another one to me straight afterwards).

My questions were good, so screw you! Sure, they didn't instantly make somebody admit 'Oh noes, your talking to me, you must know I'm scum!' but it would be stupid to expect as much. Anyway, if he was horribly misrepresented, why didn't he say so until after I voted him? I did ask him to clarify on both points.

As far as I can tell he gave a response to your question and then you shoved the words in his mouth while voting him.  So I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Time waster? Is there an index of all games with players and roles somewhere that I am unaware of? I mean I know about the notiable games archive, but that is hardly every game.

We're on a forum.  That allows you to look at old threads (indeed, that's how I worked out which game it was).

Leafsnail: Now that I think of it, what has follow up got to do with it? You deemed my questions worthless before anybody had a chance to answer. As such, how could you tell what I would or would not follow up on? And how could you tell how people could react to my questions before they had even shown up yet? Tell me why you think my questions were worthless without referring to events that happened after you made these claims.

None of them had any chance of producing a read on anyone.  I could see this before the complete lack of meaningful followups.  The fact that there were no meaningful followups is what proved me right.  One of the questions was also (hilariously ineffective) buddying.

If you think I am putting words into peoples mouths, why didn't you bring this up until after Josh tried to claim that? Why are you parroting him?

Because you started asking about exactly why your questions were useless, and it seemed like a relevant point to that (in case you tried to cite your horrible misrepresentation as a success for your questions).  You asked me the question, and now you're confused as to why I answered it, as far as I can tell.

[Toaster]

Max:

My questions were good, so screw you!

You have one opinion for and one against.  Unwarranted hostility noted.


Leafsnail:  What makes an RVS question worthwhile?  What's a good example, ideally one you did not ask?


Jim:  Do you have any worthwhile opinions on anyone yet?

[kilakan]

It would depend on who was using the daykill, and what their motives would be.

Let's say the daykiller is town and canvassing for targets.

Not sure about what you mean by canvassing, but I'd guess you just mean hunting for one.  I'd have to say that I wouldn't be the target because at this point in time using an insta day-kill would be little more then a guess, and I'd think wasting something like that if you were not sure would be a pretty bad move.

Kilakan:  Do you prefer town or scum?

From the games I've played, I would say I prefer scum.  I just find it more fun.

Toaster-You've been pretty content tossing out tons of questions, that frankly I can't see what you hope to gain from them, specifically these:

Solifuge:  Having been one, what do you think is the benefit of being a (town) Knight is to the town?

Crown:  What do you think is the biggest advantage forum mafia has over IRC?

The first one seems to me as if you are asking advice on how to play a knight, and I can not see any answer from him that would tell you what alignment he could be.

The second just seems rather useless, filler. 

Solifuge:  Fair enough.  Why not pose a "silly question?"

Jake:  Of the previous games here you've read, which was your favorite?  What did you learn from it?

For the amount of answer you got from solifuge, that's the question you ask him?  What would his response tell you to that question.
For the one directed to Jake, it seems like it could be a decent question in the first very bit of the game, but for what you have to work with it just seems like another question thrown in there to make you seem more active.
Explain what you hoped to gain from the responses to these questions.

[Toaster]

Kilakan:  Okay.

From the question to you, I wanted to see your general mindset.  It appears to me that you more enjoy BSing than piercing through BS.  Perhaps you'd have a more movtivated, active game as scum.

On Solifuge and Crown's questions:  Most of my early (first post especially) questions are designed to get people talking.  From active discussion comes usable material.  How the question is answered is as interesting as the answer itself.

On his answer and the follow up, I'd rather wait until I get an answer from him before saying why I asked the question.  Once I hear from him, I'll explain.

Jake's question was designed to see how much experience he has with previous games here.  His answer said "very little."

[Jokerman-EXE]

Joker:  Fair question- I'm reading everything and sending out questions to see what turns up.

On newer players:  Not sure who you mean, so I'll take it you mean the three I haven't played with yet.

kilakan:  He's been in a couple of the BMs lately which I confess I haven't read.  Had a rocky start in RL2, where he was scum.   I notice he's taking a hardline stance on the other two on this list, which could indicate he's looking for a mislynch, but there's insufficient data to make a firm commitment.

CrownOfFire:  A bit standoffish for my tastes, but I'll give him a little benefit of the doubt for now.  We'll see if that gets better.

jakeread1:  Is a newbie.  He is trying tactics he does not understand.  Too much newtell interference for any sort of read as of now.


The practical upshot of all that is all three fall into a "no solid read" category.


Why are you worried about what Leafsnail would think of your vote/nonvote?

Mm, okay. At the very least, you've proven that you're looking at them. I agree that it's hard to form a solid read so far.

I wasn't worried about what Leafsnail would think of my (non)vote. In fact, I wasn't even thinking about Leafsnail. There was pressure on Jake already, and my vote wouldn't have done much that wasn't being done.

Uh, because like I said, two votes is completely overkill for that. He had pressure on him already, for the exact same reasons; let's not pretend that if I had left my vote there, you wouldn't be jumping up and down, screaming, "BANDWAGON DURRRRR" because that's exactly what would have happened.

So, what exactly would the bad point of "overkill" be?  It's not like you put your vote anywhere else after unvoting.

The point about bandwagoning is telling - it's the only reason you have for unvoting him.  In other words, it was an action taken purely for self-preservation and running counter to who you wanted to pressure.

You're right, I suppose I didn't do anything with my vote after that. It hadn't occurred to me because I was still in the mindset that I had just voted someone (I was feeling a little derp, sue me). And let me ask you a question: if the action undertaken was done so for self-preservation, what about that is scummy? A good townie hunts, but they also don't go around looking for ways to attract votes unnecessarily. My goal was accomplished; Jake answered the question. Maybe not satisfactorily, but that's not what we're discussing here. I understand that caring about appearances is somewhat scummy, but I think that you're trying to set up a false dichotomy: by unvoting I was seeking self-preservation, and must be scum, whereas if I had left my vote there, I don't think anyone here doubts that you would be attacking me for the very thing I avoided.

So where exactly is your argument?

Jumping back and forth a little:

Kilakan:  Okay.

From the question to you, I wanted to see your general mindset.  It appears to me that you more enjoy BSing than piercing through BS.  Perhaps you'd have a more movtivated, active game as scum.

What does this mean? You don't think he's scum? What was the point behind you saying this?