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[Cespinarve]

(Plus you couldn't expect Toady to use a custom one for such a reveal without de facto supporting it, at least in some people's eyes...)

Oh, no, I have never felt that Toady should use anything but ASCII, for various reason. I jsut can't play with it, it gives me a headache. HAving no official tileset means that everyone is always free to make their own, and choose a style they like. I'm all for a no tileset default.

[Starver]

Oh, no, I have never felt that Toady should use anything but ASCII, for various reason. I jsut can't play with it, it gives me a headache. HAving no official tileset means that everyone is always free to make their own, and choose a style they like. I'm all for a no tileset default.

Apologies, I read your original message ('twas you, wasn't it?) as meaning you were one of the ones who doesn't understand the ASCII style thanks to having adopted the explicitly graphical ones.

I think I got something wrong, somewhere.  Don't actually know where, so I'll let it lie.

[AutomataKittay]

Looked through those snapshots, very excited to see what's coming up 

The high ceiling does seems odd, so is inaccessible fortification areas on some castle walls, but otherwise it seems to be pretty well-formed and organically formed from interactions. Bins and barrels would be nice, and sounds like it'll be put in eventually. I do wonders what dwarven mountainhomes and elven forest retreat would look like? Or goblin's dark towers?

[Jake]

Toady embarked in fort mode to take the screens, but I doubt we'll be able to embark in towns come release. He has mentioned the possibility of an init option to allow ludicrous embarks, though!

Seems to me that there's potential for a very interesting embark "scenario" there. You'd have to pay cash for a plot of land or an existing house, collapsing buildings or drastically altering the local geography would cause trouble with the city authorities, the economy would be active from the very beginning... Yeah, that could be a lot of fun.

[Starver]

I could see it as being the total rights to do anything you like for a complete vertical column bordered in the X and Y by the surface plot limits, but to dig outside that area would mean bargaining for mineral rights over an extended area, and some sort of rule something like that of Ancient Lights applied to overhead constructions.

Perhaps even if subterranean extensions are allowed, extensive digging (or all activity?) within a few Z-levels of the surface might be discouraged.  Perhaps this is represented by the cumulative mining-specific noise-effect upon these premises (or even total noise for everything, or a half-n-half compromise to including industry but weighted to allow more extended ability), which has (upon exceeding some threshold or rolling average) the same sort of affect as log-accumulation traditionally does to elvish attitudes towards you.

Any actual disturbance of land outside the permissible area (and/or to surface/ground-floor indoor tiles explicitly part of town or road) would trigger near or actual diplomatic breakdown and could cause hostilities, especially any mysterious "sink-holes" suddenly existing.  Any mysterious floods of water or magma coming from above or off of the sub-let land could be taken as breaches of the agreement (...as well, of course, as of the reservoir you so unwisely constructed way up above your segment of town, with such unfortunate architecture as to drain itself out over the neighbours' houses...).  If you are allowed to build above other areas (almost certainly this never being allowed in the first place over military/governmental/religious structures such as the walls, keep or temples, though I could see bridges being made to access otherwise unused flat roofs purely for traffic purposes), cave-ins of constructed structures should be severely reprimanded, in accordance with the related building codes that were deemed to be of relevance to your building application and construction permit.

But I could imagine (assuming the rest of the conditions are complied with, and you are assumed to be obeying both the letter and the spirit of the agreement) something like a quick tunnel up into a shop's back-room, when nobody's looking, and the downward stairway covered with a cleverly-hidden hatch...  And I wonder if it's possible that some of that shop's stock might 'evaporate' gradually over time...


Could be complex, but... This Is DF!

[Jake]

Now that is just brilliant!

[Knight Otu]

Yeah, those are the warehouses.  Fill every tile in them with random items of every variety you see in the shops and you have the picture.  Bins in time.

Thanks!

and I might have missed it, but the wall-towers (upper exits closed by hatches) and battlements (roofless, as if the dwarfs have never encountered flying enemies) seemed to be inaccessible from anywhere except the skies...

Yep, they're not accessible, and I think in a few cases the bottom floor of a tower isn't on the same level as the surroundings.

(Oh, and is that a stairwell, disappearing down below what I assume is the Keep of the Town 1?  Wonder where that goes...)

Indeed. There's also a stairwell down in the central north part of the town, presumably down into the sewers.

...

Could be complex, but... This Is DF!

Heh. That'd pretty crazy all in all. That could also lead to tunneling into the dungeons to free some prisoners (or to execute them rather than having them run free again). Or into the local treasury...

[atomfullerene]

Noo, not in the treasury!  Coins floating around is a disaster.  I think human towns should only pay attention to digging relatively close to the surface.  Dig lower and the will, let's face it, never know the difference.  I believe Ahnk-Morpork is all tunneled under by immigrant dwarves.

[Cespinarve]

Noo, not in the treasury!  Coins floating around is a disaster.  I think human towns should only pay attention to digging relatively close to the surface.  Dig lower and the will, let's face it, never know the difference.  I believe Ahnk-Morpork is all tunneled under by immigrant dwarves.

No, the tunnels were already there- Ankh-Morpork is built on Ankh-Morpork, after all. Which would be really cool for extra long 2000-odd year world gens, if the cities would be built on top of older, erosion covered cities.

[Untelligent]

Like dungeons and catacombs but with more development done in that area, I suppose.

[AutomataKittay]

No, the tunnels were already there- Ankh-Morpork is built on Ankh-Morpork, after all. Which would be really cool for extra long 2000-odd year world gens, if the cities would be built on top of older, erosion covered cities.

Happens IRL quite often with ancient city sites, and even some relatively modern cities have 'undercity' or was built on top of older part.

That'd be neat to find, though.

[Starver]

I believe Ahnk-Morpork is all tunneled under by immigrant dwarves.

No, the tunnels were already there- Ankh-Morpork is built on Ankh-Morpork, after all.

To be precise... these are both true.  With other 'undergroundedness' as well.

The events of Thud! indicate extensive dwarven activity for various plot-related reasons, and hints[1] that it would be extended even further.

But earlier, in Men At Arms (predominantly, although also mentioned in other books), it is shown how there are layers of forgotten cellars and other "natural" subterranean tunnels, in the manner much as AutomataKittay is ninjaingly already familiar with (helped by the not infrequent flooding of the bits of the river Ankh that are not totally incapable of flooding), plus the likes of the apparently forgotten "Via Cloaca" and other bits of honest-to-goodnessactualness sewer system.



[1] Especially given a "mine-sign" not too dissimilar to:

Spoiler: small image (not even in the traditional colour, but oh well) (click to show/hide)

[RayesKotrora]

First of all, I am reminded how much I prefer tilesets, I found those huge screenshots to be very confusing when it came to what was inside the buildings.

I really can't stand tilesets in the least bit. (In my opinion) Every single one looks absolutely dreadful. The ASCII is much, much cleaner to begin with, and on top of that you can actually use your imagination to see the large, extravagant structures, giant, deadly megabeasts, intricacies of the armours, etc. Whereas with a tileset you are confined to the junk little caricature that you have to stare at for hours. They are hard on the eyes, they are limiting in imagination, and they just generally aren't very tasteful in my opinion.

I thank the people that put forth the effort to make them, but I personally would never, ever use them and I hope Toady never officially endorses the use of them and stays with ASCII as long as possible (at least until DF becomes VR).

Sorry about my rant on tilesets, but I constantly see people on here talking about how bad ASCII is and how much better tilesets are and this was basically the final straw to let me get it off of my mind for a while.

[sneakey pete]

At the risk of starting a tileset vs no tileset debate. i actually quite like certain aspects of some tilesets, particurally trees to replace some of the symbols for trees, and the creature pictures. Afterall, geese and goblins look mighty alike. Things like walls, floors (eg, all floors, grass included), tables and doors are quite nice to me in their native ASCII form