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[Bauglir]

Yeah, instead they should auto stamp pregnant women. That's gonna solve all the worlds problems.

MoM, I do see his point. Assuming that there are an equal amount of qualified people in every group of people, then forcing a even distribution would mean a greater number of qualified people over all.

But there aren't an equal amount of qualified people in every group, for every job. Pregnant women, for example, would be unfit for most jobs that require long-term physical activity due to the danger that would pose to mother, child, and coworkers. Hence, you can't force an even distribution and expect to increase qualification.

Not to mention that even if there were an equal number of qualified people in every definable group, for every job, that still doesn't ensure that your applicants will be a representative sample of that group. In a lot of situations, you'll have a pretty small sample size. I can't help but assume that Virex was trolling, because that idea makes no sense, of any kind.

[Kay12]

Yeah, instead they should auto stamp pregnant women. That's gonna solve all the worlds problems.

MoM, I do see his point. Assuming that there are an equal amount of qualified people in every group of people, then forcing a even distribution would mean a greater number of qualified people over all.

But there aren't an equal amount of qualified people in every group, for every job. Pregnant women, for example, would be unfit for most jobs that require long-term physical activity due to the danger that would pose to mother, child, and coworkers. Hence, you can't force an even distribution and expect to increase qualification.

Not to mention that even if there were an equal number of qualified people in every definable group, for every job, that still doesn't ensure that your applicants will be a representative sample of that group. In a lot of situations, you'll have a pretty small sample size. I can't help but assume that Virex was trolling, because that idea makes no sense, of any kind.

I can't say the idea hasn't crossed my mind a few times in this thread...

[kaijyuu]

Something wrong with affirmative action and anti discrimination laws?

Ok maybe they're not super effective all the time, but forcing quotas sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Affirmative Action is only fair to society as a whole. To individuals, it is unfair in the extreme. No real issue with anti-discrimination laws, though.

[The Merchant Of Menace]

Affirmative Action is only fair to society as a whole. To individuals, it is unfair in the extreme. No real issue with anti-discrimination laws, though.

Yeah, but what Virex is proposing is reverse discrimination, not anti-discrimination. Discriminating against a majority is still discrimination.

[Kay12]

Something wrong with affirmative action and anti discrimination laws?

Ok maybe they're not super effective all the time, but forcing quotas sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Affirmative action is, in my opinion, not the way to protect gender equality but may be necessary (or useful) as a transitional stage. I'd prefer not to have to use it though, because adding differentation between sexes isn't going to help equality in the long run - limited and smaller-scale use is ok, but the sort of Universal 50/50 gender division Virex is trying to sell is going way, way, way... too far.

[Bauglir]

It's not even that. Typically, affirmative action and the like at least require applicants to be competent to do the job before they take precedence; even in the most extreme examples, they only would require that the least competent individual who still meets the minimum qualifications be hired. Virex's proposal amounts to saying that you only need to look at actual qualifications if there are no pregnant women to be hired. I'm not sure how a fetus substitutes for 5 years experience in a chemistry lab, but apparently in this system it would do that.

[Virex]

Yeah, instead they should auto stamp pregnant women. That's gonna solve all the worlds problems.

MoM, I do see his point. Assuming that there are an equal amount of qualified people in every group of people, then forcing a even distribution would mean a greater number of qualified people over all.

But there aren't an equal amount of qualified people in every group, for every job. Pregnant women, for example, would be unfit for most jobs that require long-term physical activity due to the danger that would pose to mother, child, and coworkers. Hence, you can't force an even distribution and expect to increase qualification.

Well yeah, it's a choice between merciless "efficiency" in the name of the free market-god or a human allocation of opportunities. "It's going to reduce the amount of qualified people!" is the easiest way to justify discrimination because the one hiring gets to say who's qualified and he's unfortunately generally rather biased. We should be less fearful of the gods we have created in the form of the free market and managers and instead dare to make that change, because if we let them keep society hostage like that we can't progress towards a less oppressive society.
Basically I don't subscribe to the idea that companies should have to pick the best person for the job solely on their own arbitrary schemes, but society should also have a say in who gets to work and that will sometimes mean that people who wouldn't be qualified in a strict meritocratic system still have to be chosen over others.


Also, I could see some situations in which exempts could be necessary. Small businesses should be exempt by virtue of the sheer variance you find at the low end of the scale and there should be ample time to adapt to the new situation. That doesn't mean nothing should be done, it just means that we need to be smart about how it's done.

[Darvi]

"It's going to reduce the amount of qualified people!" is the easiest way to justify discrimination

Wat. If anything it's discrimination that reduces the amount of qualified people and as such should not be justified.

E:Oh I see what you mean.

[Virex]

Yeah, instead they should auto stamp pregnant women. That's gonna solve all the worlds problems.

MoM, I do see his point. Assuming that there are an equal amount of qualified people in every group of people, then forcing a even distribution would mean a greater number of qualified people over all.

But there aren't an equal amount of qualified people in every group, for every job. Pregnant women, for example, would be unfit for most jobs that require long-term physical activity due to the danger that would pose to mother, child, and coworkers. Hence, you can't force an even distribution and expect to increase qualification.

Not to mention that even if there were an equal number of qualified people in every definable group, for every job, that still doesn't ensure that your applicants will be a representative sample of that group. In a lot of situations, you'll have a pretty small sample size. I can't help but assume that Virex was trolling, because that idea makes no sense, of any kind.

I can't say the idea hasn't crossed my mind a few times in this thread...

You know, I have considered copping out and claiming I was trolling at some points, but I guess I'm kind of a sadomachochist when it comes to arguing or something...

[RedKing]

So...this system merely discriminates against the most qualified. Yeah, that's a great idea.

[Virex]

So...this system merely discriminates against the most qualified. Yeah, that's a great idea.

I presume you're a flat tax supporter as well?

[Darvi]

So...this system merely discriminates against the most qualified. Yeah, that's a great idea.

I presume you're a flat tax supporter as well?

That has nothing to do with the current discussion.

[RedKing]

So...this system merely discriminates against the most qualified. Yeah, that's a great idea.

I presume you're a flat tax supporter as well?

No, I just believe in meritocracy. See the regular rage thread for my ranting about the pitfalls of employing people with no regard to their actual ability to perform their job.

[Kay12]

Yeah, instead they should auto stamp pregnant women. That's gonna solve all the worlds problems.

MoM, I do see his point. Assuming that there are an equal amount of qualified people in every group of people, then forcing a even distribution would mean a greater number of qualified people over all.

But there aren't an equal amount of qualified people in every group, for every job. Pregnant women, for example, would be unfit for most jobs that require long-term physical activity due to the danger that would pose to mother, child, and coworkers. Hence, you can't force an even distribution and expect to increase qualification.

Well yeah, it's a choice between merciless "efficiency" in the name of the free market-god or a human allocation of opportunities.  -snip snip-

You make claims that companies routinely recruit people on sexist grounds without any proof whatsoever. You've been doing that a lot in this thread - claiming that <evil phenomenon X> is common without backing it up with anything but scary talk.

No matter which kind of market system you want to run, you'll need qualified people for each job. Farmers who know nothing about farming are equally bad under free market systems, Zeitgeist future cities and communist utopias. Doctors who don't know what an appendix is are equally bad under free market systems, Zeitgeist future cities and under communist utopias. Consider yourself going to a doctor, with a lump of cancer inside you. Which doctor would you want to handle your treatment - one that has medical degrees and experience, or one who has no degrees but good intentions and a fetus inside her?

Seriously, Virex, I think you're a hypocrite. You're constantly complaining about discrimination while pushing policies that are even worse. Consider the situation where pregnant women would automatically get jobs - it would no longer make sense for a woman to get educated, as getting pregnant provides employment easier. Over time, you'd have women actually become the more ignorant sex and a burden for employers. Works pretty badly for gender equality.

Also, what would happen to people like me? I've studied for years to land a job in the development department of a respected medium-sized IT company, and you'd prefer hiring someone who can't program, but does have a vagina? That's discrimination. If you claim to oppose discrimination, you can't condone this without being a hypocrite.