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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870489 times)

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3405 on: August 10, 2011, 11:21:34 pm »

One of the main problems with democracy is the tendence for power to coalesce around a few increasingly simmilar parties which make only cosmetical reforms and think only in what happens 4 years from now, if at all. That and the fact that they are not terribly honest, but that is immanent to politicians in general.

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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3406 on: August 11, 2011, 01:02:03 am »

I consider two party system where both parties aren't exactly far from each other to be almost equally bad... Democrats and Republicans are both right-wing, at least from the Finnish perspective.

Finnish parties have been accused of being too similar with each other, especially the "big three" - Coalition (centre right), Centre Party (centre) and Social Democrats (centre left). However, with the anti-EU True Finns winning a landslide, the differences in EU policy became pronounced, so they're currently very different parties...
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3407 on: August 11, 2011, 01:10:14 am »

A politician can promise X, but if X is dependent upon a legislative vote, then there simply is no guarantee until and unless that politician can read the other legislators' minds. They can't. It would be interesting to know how that politician intends to convince other legislators, because that will increase the politician's chances of actually passing X.

Problem being that people like promises, even when those promises mean jack squat.

People expect harsh words, and drama, and Big Important Things. It's easy to get people riled up in the short term and over irrelevant things, and people do tend to vote with their gut/heart, rather than their brain. People love social trends, hot-button issues, and scandal, and it's hard to get them to care about anything more important.

This is speaking from an American perspective, of course.


I can't compare it to anything else, but a two-party system definitely has its drawbacks. Remember what I was saying about ideas and groups being considered "legitimate" or not because of how the public narrative works? Similar things apply here. Democrats and Republicans are the two opposing groups, therefore they are always seen as dichotomous; that's just how things work. It doesn't matter if there's little difference between them, if they're both on the same side of "center" regarding something (from a more worldly, or even an American, perspective), or if one of them is primarily batshit crazy. They are both generally seen as viable opposing groups sitting on opposite sides of the aisle. The narrative demands that they be seen as such. One may become more or less popular for a time, but people see them as yin and yang, two opposite sides of the same coin, and the coin must have that kind of two-sided polarity or it isn't a damn coin anymore. Again, this narrative continues no matter where the differences between the parties actually lie. Sometimes you get people who get disillusioned enough to form/join third parties, but those are rarely statistically viable.
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3408 on: August 11, 2011, 01:21:06 am »

Sometimes you get people who get disillusioned enough to form/join third parties, but those are rarely statistically viable.
Self-fulfilling prophecies suck. Might as well join a third party, really (preferably the Libertarians :P)
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3409 on: August 11, 2011, 02:01:42 am »

I'd call it more self-reinforcing than self-fulfilling. Yeah, the idea that third parties are useless helps third parties continue to be useless, but that still stems from the fact that the US is, at its core, a two-party system.

(preferably the Libertarians :P)

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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3410 on: August 11, 2011, 02:24:52 am »

Sometimes you get people who get disillusioned enough to form/join third parties, but those are rarely statistically viable.
Self-fulfilling prophecies suck. Might as well join a third party, really (preferably the Libertarians :P)

Laissez ain't fair, man.
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3411 on: August 11, 2011, 02:33:25 am »

What's so "auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh" about it?
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3412 on: August 11, 2011, 02:41:23 am »

I happen to enjoy the fact that I have, like, roads, and that my food is regulated to not have poison in it, and so forth. It's working out pretty well for me!
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3413 on: August 11, 2011, 02:48:41 am »

The last Libertarian Party presidential candidate, Bob Barr, was quite "not libertarian" on some issues rather important to me - such as having authored and pushed DoMA. He also formerly vehemently supported the Patriot Act as well as the War on Drugs, while now regretting those stances.

Libertarian is now filled with fairtax/no-taxation Tea Party freak connotations, and as one that would consider himself a leftist libertarian with a nod to socialist necessities, it's best just to stay clear and pursue a practical solution at the national level.

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3414 on: August 11, 2011, 02:59:38 am »

I happen to enjoy the fact that I have, like, roads, and that my food is regulated to not have poison in it, and so forth. It's working out pretty well for me!

Same for me... basically, I blame stuff like the melamine scandal in China to be caused by lack of regulation. I still can't figure what kind of person would put poison in milk just to increase profits...
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3415 on: August 11, 2011, 03:19:59 am »

I think Libertarianism is so popular in America right now because in the US, we don't have much to show for our tax dollars. Our infrastructure sucks, we still have a ton of poor, and the middle class still has it kind of rough in general. Christ, we're just barely starting to help poor people pay medical bills legitimately instead of sneaking off to a different ER every time their kid gets sick.

In other nations (like many European nations), taxes are somewhat high but they actually have something to show for it, whether it's good transportation infrastructure, college funding, good health care for its citizens, et cetera. In the US, we have... bureaucracy? Seemingly orders of magnitude more military spending than anyone else on the planet? Waste?

The irony is that, in my opinion, the small-government low-taxes quasi-Libertarian crowd tends to support policies which exacerbate the problem. For example, in the recent debt fiasco, Republicans were damn near ready to swallow bleach rather than raise any sort of taxes on anyone, even the very rich, and they think the solution to us not getting much out of our social programs is to cut them even further, to the point where things become even more of a hellhole for those without means.

Those people would do well to realize that one reason this situation exists in the US is not because we tax too much, but because we don't tax the right people in the right way. We have ostensibly a very high corporate tax rate, but enough loopholes and deductions that they aren't paying diddly. Similar situation for the very wealthy. It's quite insidious: You tax the middle class an amount high enough that they have to struggle a little bit, use it to provide infrastructure for all classes (and other help for the lower classes) that's shitty enough that people don't really value it highly or find it necessary/useful, and then leave the wealthy to their own devices. End result: Through natural social forces and intentional manipulation of public opinion, the middle class hates spending and hates taxes (because they bear the brunt of the former and don't see much coming from the latter), the lower class is kicked while it's down, and the upper class is really happy that the middle class hates taxes, because they get to keep their position at the top of the totem pole. The idea that taxing the wealthy/corporations a fair amount (and no, flat taxes aren't "fair") will actually be harmful to the average man is only possible because those with the money aren't taxed enough (and the revenue the government does get is misspent enough) that people don't realize what proper governmental spending and programs could actually do for them.

What doesn't help is the over-emphasis in American society on individualism over collectivism. Both are necessary for a functioning society, but an American taken at random seems much more likely to believe "a man has the right to keep any resources he manages to acquire for himself" than believe "a man has the responsibility to share what resources he is able to acquire with the society in which he lives" or "a society has the right to collectively allocate where necessary the resources its members are able to acquire". To a degree, all of these statements are true, and must be true for any society to function. Except in far-flung utopian scenarios, you can't have people hoarding absolutely everything they can, nor can you have zero personal incentive to be productive. American culture tends to teach that if you succeed or fail, it's a success/failure of your own ability or spirit, not of the society and environment which ultimately is responsible for and supports you. Obviously, people need to have incentive/be rewarded for what they accomplish, and see consequences of their failure, but it's also necessary for people to understand that when they succeed, it's not in spite of the world and society around you (this is a sociopathic point of view, in my opinion), but with the support of and in conjunction with that society. People need to acknowledge that they're individuals, but also that they're part of something larger than themselves. Both cooperation and competition are essential facets of society and human behavior, and it frightens me when either is praised with significant lack of regard for the other.

I happen to enjoy the fact that I have, like, roads, and that my food is regulated to not have poison in it, and so forth. It's working out pretty well for me!

Same for me... basically, I blame stuff like the melamine scandal in China to be caused by lack of regulation. I still can't figure what kind of person would put poison in milk just to increase profits...

If your mindset is strictly competitive, as is the case with a for-profit institution (especially something like a corporation, where individuals have less influence than cold corporate cultural and bureaucratic mechanisms), then the fact is that it simply doesn't matter to them. Why put poison in milk? Why care if there's poison in your milk, if lack of oversight helps you maximize the bottom line? We've seen this before in history. Five-year-olds working in coal mines, people selling radium water to cure illnesses (this one got less popular after the spokesperson's jaw rotted off, and all kinds of fraud and misbehavior. This is especially easy to do in the modern, global age, because even if you're personally allowing these kinds of decisions (instead of it just being the result of policies and red tape), those decisions are likely affecting people you don't know, don't particularly care about, and will never seen in your life. It's far easier to care about whether or not you're poisoning the wells in the nearby town than care about whether, say, some aspect of your business's practices are indirectly poisoning the wells in a remote village in Africa.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 03:25:21 am by G-Flex »
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3416 on: August 11, 2011, 07:10:06 am »

As usual, the courts get to pick, up the pieces of the legislature's mistakes while being bound by its rules....

http://news.yahoo.com/britains-rioters-young-poor-disillusioned-192716141.html
Also, guess what, this country just had a multi million dollar royal wedding in the middle of a recession. Lapse in judgment?


Per usual, the reader comments are horrible and often racist. For some reason, they talk about Black people, though this is Britain and only 25% of the neighborhood is minority and the other 75% is white.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 07:12:59 am by Truean »
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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3417 on: August 11, 2011, 07:48:21 am »

As usual, the courts get to pick, up the pieces of the legislature's mistakes while being bound by its rules....

http://news.yahoo.com/britains-rioters-young-poor-disillusioned-192716141.html
Also, guess what, this country just had a multi million dollar royal wedding in the middle of a recession. Lapse in judgment?


Per usual, the reader comments are horrible and often racist. For some reason, they talk about Black people, though this is Britain and only 25% of the neighborhood is minority and the other 75% is white.

Yeah the comments are unbelievable..

This one especially stroke me as sort of interesting:

Quote
Socialism has always created despair.

I mean...what opportunities does any socialist country provide?

You either work for the govt...or sit at home and get a govt check....

People left Europe for something different.

That's why they came to America...a place that offered them more.

Anyone who cites Europe as an example of anything (health care, education...w/e)...needs to be gently reminded of this...

We DONT want to be like them...that's the whole idea of America.
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Gamerlord

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3418 on: August 11, 2011, 07:54:16 am »

Quote
Socialism has always created despair.

I mean...what opportunities does any socialist country provide?

You either work for the govt...or sit at home and get a govt check....

People left Europe for something different.

That's why they came to America...a place that offered them more.

Anyone who cites Europe as an example of anything (health care, education...w/e)...needs to be gently reminded of this...

We DONT want to be like them...that's the whole idea of America.


Whoever this person is, I wish pain upon them.

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #3419 on: August 11, 2011, 08:36:41 am »

I think Libertarianism is so popular in America right now because in the US, we don't have much to show for our tax dollars. Our infrastructure sucks, we still have a ton of poor, and the middle class still has it kind of rough in general. Christ, we're just barely starting to help poor people pay medical bills legitimately instead of sneaking off to a different ER every time their kid gets sick.
Because they don't have the money to pay for it themselves... or they misappropriate funds themselves.  I'm not saying all of them do, but there are kids who would not be seen dead in "Generic Shoe" and their parents over-spend on crap because they give in.  If people buy in their means they can live a much better life.  I've done it and still do it.  I don't have kids today because I can't afford kids today.  I may be considered rich by some of my friends, but it's only because I set aside money and if I couldn't afford something with what I have left... I do without.  I have one friend who lives in a trailer park with his wife and two kids.  He caves in every time his kids ask for a toy.  I can't visit him anymore because there are toys laying all over the place and I can't walk, let alone sit in their trailer.  If they didn't buy all that crap, they'd be able to visit the dentist more than once in a blue moon.  I feel bad for the kids, but I can only blame the parents in that case.  I help them when I can, but I can't rightly go into their home and say, "No more toys until ____."  That's Mom and Dad's job, and I've hinted that to them... I never had that many toys as a kid and maybe that's why:

I consider myself thrifty, but I buy nice things when I know those things will last.  My furniture is over 15 years old.  The couch is showing signs of wear but I'm now just considering buying a new bed, so it will wait.  My sole credit card is paid off and I intend to keep it that way.  It kills me when my friends brag about something they just bought because I know they are going to throw it away in a few weeks for one reason or another.  They laugh at the holes in the couch, but I tell them that it's an extra $800-1000 in my pocket right now that they wouldn't have... and it still holds their weight each and every weekend they come over.

In other nations (like many European nations), taxes are somewhat high but they actually have something to show for it, whether it's good transportation infrastructure, college funding, good health care for its citizens, et cetera. In the US, we have... bureaucracy? Seemingly orders of magnitude more military spending than anyone else on the planet? Waste?
Agree, and it also makes me mad.  We could cut a fraction of that war chest and fund so many programs that need money.  The problem is that (in my opinion) the Congressmen are trying to prove a point: We need more taxes.  We don't need more taxes.  We need properly spent taxes.

The irony is that, in my opinion, the small-government low-taxes quasi-Libertarian crowd tends to support policies which exacerbate the problem. For example, in the recent debt fiasco, Republicans were damn near ready to swallow bleach rather than raise any sort of taxes on anyone, even the very rich, and they think the solution to us not getting much out of our social programs is to cut them even further, to the point where things become even more of a hellhole for those without means.
They only exacerbate the problem because of your next point:
Those people would do well to realize that one reason this situation exists in the US is not because we tax too much, but because we don't tax the right people in the right way.
This is why many Libertarians, while pushing tax cuts, also want audits and spending reform.  The sad part is that the Republicans that want to win this crowd over don't listen to the reform part.  They make blanket cuts.

Now, there's another side of the argument as well.  Take government funded schooling.  If each person is able to use their own paycheck to pay for whatever school they want their child in, government cuts to schooling wouldn't matter because they wouldn't exist.  It would also encourage people to have kids only if they could afford to educate them (...Well, it should, and each parent should be aware what it's going to cost them to have another kid.  I guess you could mandate that all children you have requires a "trust" fund that has $N put in it each month to pay for education expense.  That's the only way I came up with on the fly.  I'm sure there are holes.)  With "free" schooling, parents don't even calculate that cost into raising a child because someone else is paying for it.  (Heck, I'm sure many parents don't even think about the cost to raise a kid because they think the tax deduction is supposed to pay for that... or they just assume someone will help them.)  With parent funded schooling, nobody could use that threat to get funding for their bills with earmarks to benefit their friends.

That's an extreme example, but the logic could apply to any number of social programs.

What doesn't help is the over-emphasis in American society on individualism over collectivism.
I'm not sure this is entirely true.  While you are encouraged to "make it on your own" there is a very serious push on de-centralization of power within that same Libertarian crowd.  It's more of a push to collect in smaller groups.  It promotes competition.  If you live in a town that enacts a new law that you do not appreciate, it's far easier to move to a new town in protest than it is to move to a new country.  An example I posted recently:  There is a vote at the end of this month to remove one of the board member of the HOA I just moved into.  He's abusing his granted power by pushing lawsuits (paid for out of the HOA fees, using his lawyer friend) on the home owners themselves.  (One of them he didn't like the light-gray colored shingles on their roof...)  That's very local corruption and it's going to be very quickly resolved.  Had that been on the state scale, nobody would have noticed the $800+ other fees that were involved in that suit.  The neighborhood might not have even known it was happening because the homeowner might have been afraid of the State... instead, they can file a complaint with all the other residents of the association.

If your mindset is strictly competitive, as is the case with a for-profit institution (especially something like a corporation, where individuals have less influence than cold corporate cultural and bureaucratic mechanisms), then the fact is that it simply doesn't matter to them. Why put poison in milk? Why care if there's poison in your milk, if lack of oversight helps you maximize the bottom line? We've seen this before in history. Five-year-olds working in coal mines, people selling radium water to cure illnesses (this one got less popular after the spokesperson's jaw rotted off, and all kinds of fraud and misbehavior. This is especially easy to do in the modern, global age, because even if you're personally allowing these kinds of decisions (instead of it just being the result of policies and red tape), those decisions are likely affecting people you don't know, don't particularly care about, and will never seen in your life. It's far easier to care about whether or not you're poisoning the wells in the nearby town than care about whether, say, some aspect of your business's practices are indirectly poisoning the wells in a remote village in Africa.
Here, I agree.  I consider myself Libertarian.  I do believe some regulation is required... on business, and in streets and infrastructure.  Anyone that claims Libertarians want a Government so small that it can't provide infrastructure is blatantly lying to push their agenda.
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