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[alway]

I was just listening to this week's http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ on NPR (because I'm a snooty liberal) and raeging about coal companies being able to pretty much buy whoever they want, whether it's small town hick villagers who are allowing environmental disaster to be wreaked on their towns for some big payoffs, or, you know, Pennsylvania's biggest research university. Unfortunately I have a sinus infection and between that and the medicine I'm too fuzzy in the head to explain it or, tbh, even remember too many of the details, but that's pretty much happened. Listen and raeg at your own convenience.

Yeah, I linked that a few days ago; certainly worth a listen. Though it's natural gas, not coal companies.

[Africa]

yeah, I'm stoned on meds right now. Such trivial details are not my forte. Just incoherently raeging

[SalmonGod]

So... interesting update on Bradley Manning.

For anyone who has been following the issue, Wired released some incriminating chat logs involving Manning that have been very very influential.  Most people with solidly negative opinions of the kid justify them through things said in those logs.

Wired had edited those logs pretty heavily.  Only small portions of the chats had been released.  Their justification was that everything else was irrelevant personal information or dangerous national security info.

It turns out they were flat out lying.  They've released the full logs now, with only a few names redacted, and it looks like there was a great deal of important context and information left out that turns many of the common media accusations against Manning into flat out lies and puts him in a more positive light in general.

Except... there was some very personal conversation in those logs that has now been released... including a confession by Manning that he's long struggled with gender identity issues, and wants to transition to female.

Before Truean spoke of his struggles in this thread, I would have never batted an eye at this.  I honestly didn't realize the amount of hatred transgender people face.  Now I wonder how this is going to play out.  Some causes for the hatred he has received have been invalidated, but at the same time he's been made a target for more deeply rooted prejudices...

[Truean]

Yeah, the whole controversy against wikileaks is crap. Everything they're saying is 100% true and they aren't broadcasting critical information like troop movements. The enemy gains no advantage from this.

The government is essentially just putting a gag order on anything it doesn't want people knowing by stamping every damn thing with "Top Secret." There is absolutely no reason for this. Our leaders are the ones behaving badly, yet the people who point this out are called everything but terrorists and I'm sure they've probably been called that too....

It's a sad day when the speaking the truth is a forbidden crime....

As for the transgender thing, yeah, if he wasn't screwed before, he is now. Not sure how DADT is now but before that would've been immediate discharge from the service at the very least. Plus, of course now he'll be ridiculed basically forever. The weird problem for treating transgendered people is that ideally we'd do it in childhood, but the problem is you can't be sure at that age. As a result, if you really are transgendered, you end up growing up all messed up and transitioning is a nightmare. No idea what this poor guy will do....

[SalmonGod]

yet the people who point this out are called everything but terrorists and I'm sure they've probably been called that too....

Oh, they are... in fact, I'm pretty sure various media/political figures have called Wikileaks and its supporters a higher order of terrorist than Al Qaeda, and have called for them to be treated as such.  The higher profile collaborators and supporters who aren't being tried in legal action for whatever can be dug up are being closely monitored and harassed.  Not to mention the Wikileaks immitators popping up now that appear to be traps...

As a result, if you really are transgendered, you end up growing up all messed up and transitioning is a nightmare. No idea what this poor guy will do....

Yeah, all this on top of the almost guaranteed infliction of mental instability by the most extreme measures of long-term solitary confinement...

[Leafsnail]

Julian Assange is not an American citizen and he has no constitutional rights. So, there's no reason that the CIA can't kill him.

Hey, I must have missed the part of the constitution that gave the CIA the right to assassinate any foreign national they like.

I think Assange has a pretty damn good case for asylum should the US try to extradite him, considering several of these sources come from high ranking military officials.

[Vector]

Bleh.

Well, given that Assange's lawyer has him down for raping two women, they probably won't have to engage in so-called police action.

[SalmonGod]

Yeah, I was really disappointed to hear about that.  I'm very torn on that issue.  I had understood him to be kind of a dick on a personal level before, but wanted to believe that the charges against him were grey area material.  Now my opinion of him has sunk even more... but I still see his work as so damn important...

[Vector]

His work is important, but my opinion is that when you rape someone, that's it.  It doesn't matter how big you are, you don't get to violate someone else's boundaries like that.

It's not like we have to have perfect heroes and villains, you know.  He did good in one part of his life and bad in another.  Let's judge him as human, rather than putting him up on a pedestal.

[Phmcw]

Is there any evidence that he actually did it? Last time I gave the issue a look, there was nothing in the accusation.

[Vector]

So apparently Assange did rape those women.  What do you know.

This is what I've got so far.

[Leafsnail]

Bleh.

Well, given that Assange's lawyer has him down for raping two women, they probably won't have to engage in so-called police action.

Doesn't justify murdering him or handing him over to somewhere where his life would clearly be in danger.

Incidentally, from the article linked, it seems his lawyer has reconfirmed the account of events that was given before, but I think it's being argued that subsequent consent made the act as a whole not rape (I have no idea how the law works in this area and I won't pretend to).  Or something like that?  At least they aren't going down the "THESE WOMEN ARE DIRTY LYING PROSTITUTES" route that DSK's lawyers seem to favour.

[Vector]

What I meant was that I'm hoping they'll take standard, non-endangered jail instead of his head on a platter.  I by no means meant to condone any actions on his life.


For the other thing, retroactive consent is not consent.

Of course, this is a rape case, so even saying yes and then saying no to something is considered complete consent.  If he weren't in trouble with the US government, I'd expect him to ride scott-free.

[SalmonGod]

It's not like we have to have perfect heroes and villains, you know.  He did good in one part of his life and bad in another.

Something I preach constantly.  I fully expect every human being, from Hitler to Ghandi, to have their good and bad sides, and encourage people not to condemn or worship anyone absolutely.

The question is, how do we balance the issue?  How far do we go in punishing the bad, which applies to a few, while preventing him from continuing to do the good, which applies globally? 

That's where I'm torn on the issue.  There's no inner turmoil over the tarnished image of a personal hero or anything.  Just disappointment and dread over what will happen with the movement.  I'm sure a lot of public support will hinge on this case, and his experience, connections, and skillsets do appear to make him a significant backbone to the operation of Wikileaks, beyond just being the public face.

[Levi]

I don't see why someone else can't just take over his work.  Its not like he was the only person working on wikileaks.