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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 857709 times)

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #705 on: June 18, 2011, 01:34:16 pm »

[Girl] who cried wolf:
Ok there legitimately is a problem with many feminists thinking that all or at least way too damn many men are sexist bastards. Don't get me wrong, people in general ARE bastards and men only want one thing from women as a general, overarching rule (and you damn well know it).

Yes, sometimes people who aren't sexists get drug into it. If feminists seem to be on a witchhunt for sexism it isn't because they're being assholes, but because sexism is incredibly difficult to find. It isn't incredibly difficult to find because it doesn't exist, but because people are smart enough to hide it. The people hiding it blend in with the people who aren't sexist and it's often impossible to locate them.

Why feminists often get pissed off at men who probably aren't sexists:

1.) Remember that "incredibly difficult to find because people hide it," thing about sexism? Yeah, many men will react to a woman pointing out what she might really think is sexism with "o that's not sexism [no explanation why]" To her it seems like you're blowing her off.

2.) Many men are unconsciously sexist, don't realize they are, or even mean to do it.

Think about all the names guys use as insults that are feminine. Feminine names as insults obviously piss off women, even though they might not tell you.

"Pansy, pussy, "_____ like a girl," "doesn't have the testicular fortitude," "grow some balls," "____________ little bitch," and a million others. You really want me to go on, cause I totally could?

He might be entirely truthful when he says "That's not what I meant." He wasn't trying to put down women, but of course he kinda did do that.... It isn't hard to connect the dots; even though he quite literally might not have intended to do so.

In fact girls sometimes use these names, because it is actually that deeply rooted in our culture, which is why we don't even notice, which is my entire point....

How I have every right to comment:

God knows it's a terrible idea to admit this in our society, especially on the internet, but I'm transsexual, MtF. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to transition at all, in large part because my family truly and honestly believes that gay people are pedophiles....

Other people are often little better. My boss once brought me to jail to get a client. Said jackass look one look at me and said, "get that filthy fuckin' hippie away from me." Keep in mind, I was wearing black slacks with accentuating off white pin stripes, jacket, tie, full on professional veneer in a three piece suit. what was he upset about? I had shoulder length hair tied back in a pony tail tucked into my shirt collar so you couldn't even see it.... This guy was facing serious jail time, so naturally he should worry about how his lawyer looks instead of ... O I dunno, if he can do the job....

My mind also immediately sprung to, but did not say, "Book by it's cover asshole? Really? Maybe it's the jailcell, or the jumpsuit but you look guilty staring out at me from behind bars if we're keeping score like that. I happen to be the only one in this whole damn police station who thinks you MIGHT not have done it. How smart is it to piss me off?"

Basically, if you don't look like a ken doll as a lawyer, especially a new one, people will not hire you. How many transsexual lawyers have you seen? Exactly....

As for my personal experiences regarding feminists who cry wolf. I'm actually in a unique position here:

I'm closeted, on account of my family might actually murder me if they knew, and being in the legal field it's not like I know how to lie or deceive people right? So basically no one knows until and unless I tell them. This is the whole point.

I've actually had female friends who accused me of being sexist over stupid shit, BEFORE I TOLD THEM.... After they found out how I really am and that I actually envy women and need to be one, they changed their tune quite a bit....

That said, I've seen it from both sides. Fact of the matter is men tend to say,

"Ok, maybe there's some sexism out there" but every single example of sexism seems to be met with denial.... Isn't that just a tad funny? "It's out there," but the immediate response to any possible example of sexism is "na." <------- This arrow isn't big enough to show this is the point.

As for me being trans, that's a whole 'nother can of worms, but suffice it to say, I just should've been a girl. If you don't get that, would me trying to explain that to you really matter?

It just pisses me off that:
I can say all the right things, for all the right reasons, at all the right times, in all the right ways, to all the right people, to get all the right results, but ... I'm wrong because I'm trans: not acceptable, employable, friendworthy, or otherwise allowed as such unless I live a lovely lie.... People just, "prefer not to" when it comes to being around trans people, which means we can't be part of society....Fuuuuuuuuck....

If this is like many of the other forms I've visited, you may now proceed to flood my inbox with hate mail. I'll promptly delete it.

@ Vector, thank you for being sensitive to transphobia.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 01:48:07 pm by Truean »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #706 on: June 18, 2011, 01:36:22 pm »

I was happy to see Revolutionary Girl Utena near the top of that list :)

I was also surprised that you didn't think Firefly made the cut.

I don't watch a lot of tv or movies, either.  Rarely watch tv and have only seen a few series in the last several years.  I'd guess that I see 2-3 movies a month on average.  I don't dedicate a lot of time to reading anymore, either, though I prefer it to watching stuff.  I'm mostly a gamer.

I bet you would have some things to say about Perfect Blue and Death Proof, if you ever felt like giving them a shot.  Perfect Blue is a mind screw very similar to The Black Swan.  Death Proof is a direct commentary on heroine fetishization (which is a thing I'd noticed for a long time, but didn't know how to describe until you introduced me to this term).


On the "mansplaining" debate, I haven't watched the video in question, so I can't make a personal judgement... but I will say that mimicking bad behavior is tactically sound if it can be used to make the other side realize that their behavior is bad, and isn't intended to set a trend or otherwise cause lasting harm.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #707 on: June 18, 2011, 01:43:26 pm »

@Bauglir: Don't worry, just trying to explain to you why I hold this hard line on "let's not even joke about it, dudes" stuff.
OK, this is the one thing about you that I just can't understand. It's fine if you don't understand certain kinds of humour, but why the hell do you have to butt in with a friggin sermon every time somebody makes a joke that's not to your taste?
Because the jokes contribute to the problem, and while she's not insisting that you stop making them all the time because they are Never Appropriate For Any Reason, the point is that you should try to understand why they can contribute to the problem so that you can judge whether or not they're actually acceptable. Rather than just going with a blanket, "It's just humor, there's no harm in it" argument, which isn't the case.

Unless I misunderstand what Vector argues. I am mainly responding here since my name ended up in the quote; I'm not arguing in defense of the joke, I just obsess over making sure my intended meaning was what my words conveyed, which is why I ended up maintaining that tangent so long.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Africa

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #708 on: June 18, 2011, 02:11:22 pm »


If this is like many of the other forms I've visited, you may now proceed to flood my inbox with hate mail.


Seriously?

Jesus Christ.

Out of curiosity, do you live a big city? I'd imagine life would be a lot easier just given the different social environment.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #709 on: June 18, 2011, 02:15:00 pm »

I really wish I could give a larger explanation here, put some more words into this, but I don't think there's much I can say that hasn't been said, but there is something I feel like I need to say about Vector's last few posts.

I make jokes with gender-related language.  Never around people I don't fully understand.  Never in a context where they could actually mean something.  Never with malice or any factual intent.  But I feel like I can't say that, that there is literally nothing I can say to defend myself.  That defending myself would itself be confrontational.  That's the level this thread has reached.

I think the statistical reality, that 1/6 of women in America have been raped at some point, is such a stark and startling concept that many people (including quite a few women in the other 5/6) can't really wrap around the idea, when it really is something that everyone should understand.  And while I've seen the sort of situations it can happen in, I for one can't imagine the idea of going through life having to expect such a possibility.  But when I see Vector... When I see you respond to Africa and such with such a massive, bitter chip on your shoulder about any hint of unintentional sexism, saying things like this-
Please tell me, oh brilliant and wise man, how to get congressmen to listen to me and count me as a person who counts.
Because I need you to tell me what to do, and my intellect just isn't cutting it.
I need to know how to behave reasonably.

-I really feel like you've lost the ability to distinguish between people who don't care about sexism, and people who just can't and never could see it the way you do.  And your attitude makes it incredibly difficult to say so.  But don't get me wrong.  It's impossible to deny that you have a reason to see it that way, vitriol or not; I could even say that you have the right to respond that it should be difficult to see it any way other than yours.

But sometimes I feel like I have to say otherwise, that I have to say you're making too big an issue out of some particular.  If for no other reason than because I think there should always be room for honest disagreement.  I'd like to think I've proven that I truly do mean neither you or anyone harm, and have at least some grasp of the magnitude of the problem, but I can't say anything.  Because I know it won't be heard, and to an extent, doesn't even deserve to be heard, in light of the greater reality of sexism.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 02:16:42 pm by Aqizzar »
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

Il Palazzo

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #710 on: June 18, 2011, 02:23:25 pm »

Damnit, Aqizzar, you really have a politician in you. So much diplomatic bollocking just to say the same thing that DJ did in two sentences.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #711 on: June 18, 2011, 02:26:12 pm »

I think it's naturally an emotionally charged issue that is very difficult to discuss in neutral tones, even before taking aggressive personalities into account.  I learned a long time ago that if you're going to discuss subjects of prejudice, you must be prepared to forgive a lot of things before you enter into it.

I also wish I could go deeper into my personal experiences with the subject, but that would involve breaking some oaths I've learned to take very seriously...

I'm sorry about your troubles Truean.  I really don't understand why people react with such hatred to these issues.  Yeah, you can give the standard flippant responses of "People hate/fear what they don't understand" or whatever... but that's not a real explanation.  I really don't get it.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Aqizzar

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #712 on: June 18, 2011, 02:28:45 pm »

Damnit, Aqizzar, you really have a politician in you. So much diplomatic bollocking just to say the same thing that DJ did in two sentences.

Like Salmon said, everything in this thread is an emotionally charged issue.  I wanted to make myself absolutely clear.

Truean, I really wish I had a greater response for you, but there really is nothing I can say except that you deserve better.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

freeformschooler

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #713 on: June 18, 2011, 03:22:14 pm »

I'm at a loss against Truean's post. If this thread was a platformer, Truean's already sitting at the goalpost at the end of the final level. Just sitting there. Watching.
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #714 on: June 18, 2011, 03:34:10 pm »

I think my last "but seriously" statement was grossly misunderstood. Me demanding the right to make fun of other people? Oh, the hilarity.
I don't need to demand, I just do that :D.
In an autistic "I don't see how it contributes to the problem, it's sexists and racists that contribute to the problem"-way.

If me making a gay joke makes it easier for someone else to beat up a gay guy in the street the next night, I will NOT take responsibility for that.
If me making a sexist joke makes a girl feel uncomfortable, that is her problem, again. I will treat her as an equal (worth) in every way I would treat any man, but will not sacrifice Humor (yes, MY humor, I don't really care if you find it funny) for anyone's feelings, that is really doing it the wrong way around.
If making a racist joke actually makes me a racist, so be it. As far as I know, I'm pretty colorblind when it comes to race, and never treated anyone differently for it, and you thinking otherwise is again, your problem.

I think I just fail to see how not making sexist/racist/any other joke, or not insulting anyone, stops actual discrimination or physical assault, and refuse to change my behaviour because other people disagree on that point.

(In my defense, I never make jokes about rape, nor find them funny)
(In other news, every line of this post started with an I, except for the next one. I think I'm a bit in an egoistic mood today.)
(Truean: Good for you, and courageous to come out. I hope these fora treat you differently. What I did miss was "jokes about trans" in your "It pisses me off"-chapter. Could you stand jokes about transsexuals, made by a non-transsexual? And even then, how would you not know that I secretly am a closet-trans as well and what you interpreted as a demeaning joke was actually self deprecating?)

[/rantpost]
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #715 on: June 18, 2011, 03:38:41 pm »

If me making a sexist joke makes a girl feel uncomfortable, that is her problem, again. I will treat her as an equal (worth) in every way I would treat any man, but will not sacrifice Humor (yes, MY humor, I don't really care if you find it funny) for anyone's feelings, that is really doing it the wrong way around.
So as far as I can tell, you tell jokes to make yourself laugh, and don't care if other people find them funny?  If that's the case, would it be possible for you to just keep your sexist and racist jokes on the inside of your head where you can laugh at them all you like?
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #716 on: June 18, 2011, 03:41:49 pm »

If me making a sexist joke makes a girl feel uncomfortable, that is her problem, again. I will treat her as an equal (worth) in every way I would treat any man, but will not sacrifice Humor (yes, MY humor, I don't really care if you find it funny) for anyone's feelings, that is really doing it the wrong way around.
So as far as I can tell, you tell jokes to make yourself laugh, and don't care if other people find them funny?  If that's the case, would it be possible for you to just keep your sexist and racist jokes on the inside of your head where you can laugh at them all you like?
Most of the time, yes. I maybe tell 10% of the funny stuff that happens in my head. Also, try and catch me doing one on these fora. The fact that I don't do it (that often), does not mean that I don't reserve the god-damned right to do so whenever I please. That was maybe a negation too many, can't be bothered to recount three times.
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #717 on: June 18, 2011, 03:43:00 pm »

So uh... you know you shouldn't be a dick, but you're reserving the right to be a dick regardless?

In that case, I shall reserve the right to call you out on being a dick whenever I like.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 03:44:44 pm by Leafsnail »
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #718 on: June 18, 2011, 03:48:43 pm »

Ah, a dick I can live with. A sexist and a racist I am not, even when I joke about sexes, races, and their stereotypes.
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #719 on: June 18, 2011, 03:50:44 pm »

I find use of the term "dick" in this context ironic
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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