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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 880579 times)

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1230 on: July 06, 2011, 10:53:03 am »

It's old news but I'm not too happy with the fact that Geert Wilders was acquitted.
His speech were plain incitations to religious hatred, especially his denial that moderate Muslims exist.

I mean there is plenty of bullshit in the Koran, but no more so than the bible.
And that's easy to put all ills on the back of strangers.

The points of the laws against hateful speech was to avoid such person to become a political force, and to keep those view marginalized. Sad that it missed.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1231 on: July 06, 2011, 10:56:15 am »

So you don't see any issues with a government marginalizing someone for holding a certain opinion? None at all?

I'm sorry, but Hate Speech law is some of the most abuse-ready legislation that I've ever heard of.
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Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1232 on: July 06, 2011, 11:07:30 am »

So you don't see any issues with a government marginalizing someone for holding a certain opinion? None at all?

I'm sorry, but Hate Speech law is some of the most abuse-ready legislation that I've ever heard of.
I've no more problem with forbidding hate-speech than with forbidding defamation, harassment and death threats, since it's a bit of each.
It's like yelling fire in a crowded theater except than with the theater scenario, there could be only dozen of death.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 11:10:12 am by Phmcw »
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Soadreqm

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1233 on: July 06, 2011, 03:02:45 pm »

There needs to be some kind of Bechdel test exception for movies with small casts. Take Hard Candy for example.

Edit: Or "The Fountain." I think it does pass (when the old doctor comforts the wife about dying, if not more) but it's basically a movie where everything anybody does revolves around two characters, one male and one female.

Yeah, it's hard for the "test" to really mean much of anything when every conversation involves the same protagonist and the protagonist is male.

The test isn't really supposed to give any usable information about a single film. It's targeted more towards the film industry. It's entirely reasonable for some films to feature only men in leading roles, but when the majority of films don't even have two females talking to each other, there's definitely some casting bias taking place. Or writing bias or whatever.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1234 on: July 06, 2011, 04:36:18 pm »

I think bigots should speak up, how else will we know who they are (and who to throw eggs at):
I'm fully in support of laws supporting the right to speak including non violence inducing hate speech for one simple reason: It lets me know who you are. Use that 1st amendment to paint a bullseye directly on your forehead.... Stand up and be counted o ye asshole bigots.... This way we know to avoid you and shout you down.

It is a mechanism for society to know who the assholes are and if society worked as it should, take the appropriate action of making their lives a living hell should society so desire (it should).

Personally, I follow the rule myself as it applies to me, though begrudgingly:
While I detest the very bones of people who hate GLBT, I bite my tongue and admitted cry at times. I am bitter beyond the ability of any words to describe.... The problem isn't that these assholes are saying bigoted things; it is that society does not condemn and scorn their actions. Legal sanctions are not required to do this. Vocally refuse to do business with this person, make an over exaggerated point of having no one come within a foot of them. Simply tell them you disapprove of their views to their face.... Something, anything....

The problem is that society tacitly or openly approves of these assholes and gives them no real negative repercussions in matter or in spirit for their bullshit.

Concerning Muslims: There are a shitton of them in Toledo and they seem mostly ok. The overwhelming majority of them are decent enough, the problem is that there are some batshit crazy assholes who are more than willing to kill.... Christianity has these nutjobs too so it's no better. I will say that they have an absolutely medival, and screw every single solitary person who disagrees (yes you), bass ackwards view of women. "Culture" doesn't enter into it or if it does then the old American cultural tradition of gathering around the strong branch oak to hang a black dude applies too.... It doesn't; it shouldn't. I've made professors cry in front of an entire class because I beat them so severely in this argument that they couldn't even rationally respond. This is my problem with mutliculturalism. Cultural differences are fine and I support them, until and unless it butts up against individual rights, then it can die.... horridly and in pain as I complain about it getting its blood all over my knife....

I find it ironic that not only could I transition in Iran as a transsexual, but the government would pay for it. The only problem is that they treat women so horridly there, that it just explodes an irony bomb right in my face....

"One cannot claim to support minorities while ignoring the individual: the smallest minority on earth."
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 04:41:07 pm by Truean »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1235 on: July 06, 2011, 04:46:02 pm »

I think bigots should speak up, how else will we know who they are (and who to throw eggs at):
I'm fully in support of laws supporting the right to speak including non violence inducing hate speech for one simple reason: It lets me know who you are. Use that 1st amendment to paint a bullseye directly on your forehead.... Stand up and be counted o ye asshole bigots.... This way we know to avoid you and shout you down.

It is a mechanism for society to know who the assholes are and if society worked as it should, take the appropriate action of making their lives a living hell should society so desire (it should).

This is almost exactly my belief as well, though I have an additional reason that takes a higher priority in my opinion.

Bigotry that stays hidden is still bigotry.  It is a social friction that is just boiling under the surface, waiting to explode.  If Group A hates Group B, but they're forced to keep it to themselves, then that hate will ALWAYS be there.  If those emotions and beliefs can be expressed, then there is at least a chance that they can be challenged and resolved and society can move forward.
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1236 on: July 06, 2011, 04:59:36 pm »

I agree with both of your reasoning, with two difference who happen to lead me to a different conclusion : First of all, hate speech is an attack on the people hated, and therefore should count as harassment. You are allowed to call upon the law if you are defamed, I don't see what is different if you're a whole bunch of people.

Secondly, advertising work. It's a simple fact, else no one would put so much money. Propaganda work. Same thing.
By forbidding hate speech, you forbid all kind of fanatics to speak in public, and put the blame on them.
I really believe that a few hour of civic work and a fine would have seriously thwarted Geert Wilders' credibility by putting a public blame on his discourse. The aim is not to dissuade him, the aim should be to show that his discourse is not acceptable in a civilized society.

Edit : http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-atlanta/another-woman-facing-life-prison-for-the-crime-of-miscarriage
Wow, just wow. Seriously? Life in prison required against a 15Yo girl whose cocaine habits may or may not have caused her miscarriage?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 05:17:56 pm by Phmcw »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1237 on: July 06, 2011, 06:50:36 pm »

Yeah, it's messed up all right. Even if they did, somehow, against all odds have a legitimate case that she should be given a life sentence if her child was miscarried due to cocaine use, there would be no way to prove that was the cause. As I have noted before, humans have a very hazardous reproductive cycle, for both mother and child. 15-20% of all conceptions end in miscarriage these days. In 1988, the rate was 31%. So even with modern medical technology, there's still a one in five chance of having a miscarriage, and that's if the mother is 20. If she's 45, the chance is closer to 75%. We are a very unfortunate species in that regard.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1238 on: July 06, 2011, 07:35:43 pm »

Miscarriages:
Women often miscarry. As someone fitting into the "gay best friend/really a girl" role, I hear about it a lot. Tears come to my shoulder readily. This was simply taboo to talk about. She would wonder if she had contributed to it somehow and fear that thought might occur to others. And, my god, what if she actually did.... What if she didn't know or have the slightest hint how but she did and she's partially to blame for the death of her own child. What if she really wanted the child but somehow inadvertently caused or contributed to its death. Could she live with herself? This and general stigma was why it was never talked about. It is common.

Miscarriages are shockingly common, so are SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) and other conditions of this type. We cannot know what causes them, but we love to blame.... Our retributive emotions become vengeance far too damn quickly.... We absolutely love blame, we crave it and give it, but detest receiving it, even and especially when it is deserved.

I agree with both of your reasoning, with two difference who happen to lead me to a different conclusion : First of all, hate speech is an attack on the people hated, and therefore should count as harassment. You are allowed to call upon the law if you are defamed, I don't see what is different if you're a whole bunch of people.

Secondly, advertising work. It's a simple fact, else no one would put so much money. Propaganda work. Same thing.
By forbidding hate speech, you forbid all kind of fanatics to speak in public, and put the blame on them.
I really believe that a few hour of civic work and a fine would have seriously thwarted Geert Wilders' credibility by putting a public blame on his discourse. The aim is not to dissuade him, the aim should be to show that his discourse is not acceptable in a civilized society.

Edit : http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-atlanta/another-woman-facing-life-prison-for-the-crime-of-miscarriage
Wow, just wow. Seriously? Life in prison required against a 15Yo girl whose cocaine habits may or may not have caused her miscarriage?

While your aims may be noble your methods are, sadly, not practicable for three reasons. First, defamation (liable and slander) are a limit on free speech and it is always a question where one begins and the other ends. Second, general deterrence through punishment doesn't work. Third, with the best of intentions, you inadvertently help those you intent to hamper.

I won't wax philosophical about American Defamation Law v. Free Speech. I will only say that when speech is limited repression is bred. Ideally, I would rather have more speech to explain why the hate speech is bad unless the harm is immediate, concrete and irreparable. This is why any call to arms or violence is banned.... People will always hate other people at some level. If you ban this speech, it attempts to sweep the problem under the rug rather than deal with it and show how and why to solve it.

Second, "general deterrence" or setting an example for others to avoid never works. We have handed down some of the most cruel and vile punishments imaginable in human history, yet still crime persists. Unspeakable punishments have been carried out, life and death sentences given, yet still crime persists.... This has been going on for thousands of years and so far it hasn't worked. It didn't yesterday; it isn't today; it won't tomorrow.

Third, the problem with limiting patently wrong hate speech is that those speaking it use the censor as proof that it is correct and dangerous ("otherwise why would they stop us if we weren't right and they were afraid of us?"). This inadvertently, through the rule of unintended consequences, actually has the opposite result sought and gives them some twisted argument for legitimacy that some people fall for.

Simply, you can't tell people, this man or others, what to think, no matter how wrong they are. It just doesn't work, sadly. The only thing you can do is be a decent person, show the bigot you disagree with the bigotry, and show the slandered you support their right to exist and not everyone is evil or complacent to evil....

____________________________________________________
Historically, one of the reasons slavery ended in the U.S. was that the south was allowed to be bigoted bastards, while being "American," "freedom loving," and "patriotic." The most famous example is when they said "America should let free all men and brothers," while owning slaves.... The black slaves heard this and said, "Am I not a man and a brother?"

http://www.prices4antiques.com/money-stamps-medals/tokens-other/Token-Anti-Slavery-Am-I-Not-A-Man-A-Brother-Copper-A088717.htm
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Hiiri

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1239 on: July 06, 2011, 08:35:18 pm »

I think bigots should speak up, how else will we know who they are (and who to throw eggs at):
I'm fully in support of laws supporting the right to speak including non violence inducing hate speech for one simple reason: It lets me know who you are. Use that 1st amendment to paint a bullseye directly on your forehead.... Stand up and be counted o ye asshole bigots.... This way we know to avoid you and shout you down.

It is a mechanism for society to know who the assholes are and if society worked as it should, take the appropriate action of making their lives a living hell should society so desire (it should).

I kinda agree on this.. or want to agree. The thing is, people are not smart. When a person shouts very loud: "Diz unemployment is coz of enter-a-race/minority!" People want to agree with him whether it's true or not, and start shouting with him. Then more people join in; and soon you'll have huge mobs with baseball bats beating the shit out of anyone coming their way. It feels nice to belong to a community and it's so much easier to form a community based on what color your face is or how you act/dress.

People in large groups are not smart and always want to find a scapegoat for their troubles.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1240 on: July 06, 2011, 08:48:04 pm »

I think bigots should speak up, how else will we know who they are (and who to throw eggs at):
I'm fully in support of laws supporting the right to speak including non violence inducing hate speech for one simple reason: It lets me know who you are. Use that 1st amendment to paint a bullseye directly on your forehead.... Stand up and be counted o ye asshole bigots.... This way we know to avoid you and shout you down.

It is a mechanism for society to know who the assholes are and if society worked as it should, take the appropriate action of making their lives a living hell should society so desire (it should).

I kinda agree on this.. or want to agree. The thing is, people are not smart. When a person shouts very loud: "Diz unemployment is coz of enter-a-race/minority!" People want to agree with him whether it's true or not, and start shouting with him. Then more people join in; and soon you'll have huge mobs with baseball bats beating the shit out of anyone coming their way. It feels nice to belong to a community and it's so much easier to form a community based on what color your face is or how you act/dress.

People in large groups are not smart and always want to find a scapegoat for their troubles.

O yes, very yes.

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...."

Fact is, these people will continue to garner support whether or not you make their bullshit comments illegal. They will, in fact, still make them, but now they will just do so quietly, and we will have no opportunity to know we should oppose them right then and there....

People in the U.S. blame illegal immigrants for the job shortage....

My response is to shout above the rest of them all: "Because, "clearly" Pedro is the one who moved all your jobs to China and if he weren't picking produce in the sweltering hot farm fields all day you'd somehow have a job? It couldn't possibly be that the companies with all the money and power screwed you and everyone else for a cheaper way of doing things, like maybe how everything is made in China?"

*glare*

"Damn it all, Pedro if only you'd have picked those grapes faster...."

Aaaaand, situation diffused and racist moron looks like an asshole, which he is.... I break his scapegoat causality by showing everyone around him just how stupid it is.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Gamerlord

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1241 on: July 07, 2011, 03:45:14 am »

Just a couple of questions: If a Muslim girl goes to a school, and wants to wear the bhurka, she should be able to wear one but only in the colours of the school. That sound right? And if that girl can wear a bhurka, shouldn't another girl be allowed to wear her cross?

Realmfighter

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1242 on: July 07, 2011, 04:03:04 am »

Just a couple of questions: If a Muslim girl goes to a school, and wants to wear the bhurka, she should be able to wear one but only in the colours of the school.

What.
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1243 on: July 07, 2011, 04:09:26 am »

Just a couple of questions: If a Muslim girl goes to a school, and wants to wear the bhurka, she should be able to wear one but only in the colours of the school. That sound right? And if that girl can wear a bhurka, shouldn't another girl be allowed to wear her cross?

In my opinion, in a free country, a person should be able to express him/herself with clothing freely (as long as said clothing covers the "naughty areas" of the culture in question). On the other hand, clothing that covers the face has a problem in functionality, as ID checks, for example, require one's face to be visible.

In any case, while I'm not a religious type myself, I never understood why forcing people to not wear religious symbols promotes religious harmony. By that logic, painting everyone blue promotes racial harmony.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1244 on: July 07, 2011, 04:24:23 am »

Just a couple of questions: If a Muslim girl goes to a school, and wants to wear the bhurka, she should be able to wear one but only in the colours of the school. That sound right? And if that girl can wear a bhurka, shouldn't another girl be allowed to wear her cross?

I don't really get the point of school uniforms. Is there actually a reason the hypothetical girl here shouldn't be allowed to wear whatever she damn well pleases?
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