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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 876286 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1215 on: July 02, 2011, 04:43:22 pm »

Misanthropy... rising... ok ok some internal compromise is required...

I'm going to read tvtropes real-life crowning moments of heartwarming while listening to the most raging hateful song I know of.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Taricus

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1216 on: July 02, 2011, 04:56:05 pm »

This is a bit of an interesting read.
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1217 on: July 02, 2011, 08:41:21 pm »

@Vector: interesting article on the Bechdel test, must read more, this sort of analysis intrigues me.

BTW: would "Spirited Away" pass this test? I think there's scenes which qualify. Is it mostly an American phenomena? I an certainly think of examples from my limited, compared to many people here, exposure to Anime. Even from the early 80's

On a related note, I read an article, years ago, where the author interviewed a woman writing a thesis on female leads in low-budget hollywood action/slasher films. She recalled a friend of hers had pointed out a fact she had missed, being so engrossed in dissecting the individual films details: all the female leads in the films she was looking at had gender-neutral names like "Toni", "Chris" etc (they also never had sexual relationships), so basically they were off-the-shelf scripts designed so you could put in either a male/female protagonist interchangeably. Not really "female" roles at all. Any female character who had sex in those movies tended to meet some sort of gruesome end.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 08:46:17 pm by Reelyanoob »
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SalmonGod

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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1219 on: July 02, 2011, 08:47:58 pm »

Thank's Salmongod, that Author is probably who I was reading about, all the facts fit, as does the publishing date on her book.
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scriver

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1220 on: July 02, 2011, 08:57:26 pm »

Hello, everyone.  This vacation has been pretty good for me so far :3

However, let's talk about the Bechdel Test.

It turns out that screenwriters are taught not to pass it.
Very nice site, especially the part about movies/moviemaking/writing. Combines something I care about with something I'm very interested in. Been binging since you posted it, basically, but am too tired to continue now . Thanks for linking it.

Also, lol on movie business. Stupid economical cowards seeking protection behind "truths" and made up facts. I should change that. Gotta get some sleep first, though.
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Love, scriver~

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1221 on: July 02, 2011, 10:05:32 pm »

Good to see Vector back :).

To celebrate her return, how about we have a little progressive joy:
http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110630/ap_on_bi_ge/us_scalia_tobacco :D

There's some sadness that Scalia is this corrupt and/or completely stupid, but it was at least fixed this time. He really needed to be taken down a peg when he starts making backroom deals and assuring that he basically has 3 other justices that will grant a court hearing. Screw you sir, you are a powerful man but you are only one powerful man....
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 10:11:04 pm by Truean »
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1222 on: July 02, 2011, 11:56:07 pm »

Hey, I'm glad that everyone is enjoying that site!  I really like it, too--the leading lady is very precise in her criticisms.


BTW: would "Spirited Away" pass this test? I think there's scenes which qualify. Is it mostly an American phenomena? I an certainly think of examples from my limited, compared to many people here, exposure to Anime. Even from the early 80's.

I believe this is chiefly a problem for the United States, though other countries have similar phenomena that could be described with an alternate text, geared towards their media.

Yeah, many anime pass Bechdel's version.  This is because in anime, the general rule seems to be more girls -> more tits onscreen at any given time -> more viewers, as oppose to less girls -> more viewers.

However, these are usually not "women" in the standard sense of the term; they are sex objects.  The objects of their conversation are often geared towards the male gaze, and they continue to cater to him.  I am mostly speaking of harem anime, of course, or other, similar, otaku-geared shows.

What I mostly notice is that in anime and manga, women tend to have more simple motivations than their male counterparts, often need saving, are seldom the main character in an adventurous work, and so on, and so forth.  They have the jiggle-cam and, even when a woman is the main character, her role very serious, her voice actor even given a deeper, more authoritative voice... she is still usually portrayed with skimpy outfits, and her head will be cut out of the frame in order to direct the eye to her breasts or buttocks.

And then, of course, there are people like Hayao Miyazaki, to whom this analysis does not apply at all.  These people are usually few and far between, but I adore them :3
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Gamerlord

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1223 on: July 02, 2011, 11:57:43 pm »

Joy! A great source of thought (and to be honest, shame and amusement) is open once more!


Yeah, many anime pass Bechdel's version.

I can think of many.

G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1224 on: July 03, 2011, 12:25:19 am »

Well, it's a good thing that we have progressive auteurs like Michael Bay around to really push the envelope when it comes to portraying believable characters who don't exist simply to fulfill the target demographic's basest desires and expectations.
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1225 on: July 03, 2011, 12:47:39 am »

Panda Kopanda! Well there's only one girl in that, so it fails the Bechdel test i guess. Miyazaki's finest hour  ::)
(I was wrong, Mimiko talks to grandma near the start)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 12:53:51 am by Reelyanoob »
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Africa

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1226 on: July 05, 2011, 10:58:56 am »

There needs to be some kind of Bechdel test exception for movies with small casts. Take Hard Candy for example.

Edit: Or "The Fountain." I think it does pass (when the old doctor comforts the wife about dying, if not more) but it's basically a movie where everything anybody does revolves around two characters, one male and one female.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 11:03:53 am by Africa »
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1227 on: July 05, 2011, 03:51:20 pm »

Nah, there's no exceptions because it's, again, a measure of female presence.

I mean, the thing is, I've usually seen movies that fail the test excused by things like "but there would be no women in that situation!" and so on, and so forth.

That's fine, but the point is not to condemn the movies that fail for misogyny, or say that movies that passed are feminist.  It's a simple litmus test, whose power is in examining movies in general; it's not really meant as a thought experiment for single films in the first place.

After all, a film with an all-male cast reads very differently in different contexts--consider it in our movie market, and then consider it in an oppressive matriarchy.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Flying Dice

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1228 on: July 05, 2011, 09:05:37 pm »

Actually, I agree that this appears to be much more obvious in American media (Although it could simply be that those of us in the States tend to have much more exposure to Hollywood and network television) , not least because of the degree to which these preconceptions are entrenched in the entertainment industry. Off the top of my head I can think of several anime and manga series which easily pass the Bechdel Test (MSL Nanoha [admittedly, it fails the reverse test hard, seeing as there are never more than 2-3 significant male characters in any given season, and most of them are put on a bus after their first season.], Claymore [well, duh], Black Lagoon, etc.). For that matter, I tend to get the impression that SF/Fantasy works tend to pass the test more often as well, although I could be mistaken. The Wheel of Time springs to mind, although Jordan complicates things with his whole fixation on the "the genders can't understand each other at all" thing. Terry Pratchett, OTOH, passes it with every volume centered on Granny Weatherwax & Co.

On another note, I think that it is true that the test can be somewhat inaccurate in terms of films which have strong female characters who are in environments or situations where, historically speaking, the population is largely male, or in films with small casts. E.G.: in a film about frontline U.S. troops in the Korean War, it probably wouldn't be reasonable to have large numbers of female characters. This is where I see SF/fantasy as able to break this trend of casting predominantly white het male characters, as the central aspect of both genres is the telling of a story in a world which is inherently different from our own, freeing the writer to set up sociopolitical structures, etc., however they desire. The problem with this is that people do tend to write what they know, even in strange settings, so quite a few authors still tend to superimpose contemporary gender, political, social and economic issues onto their universe, which I believe is part of the reason why Golden Age SF writers mostly wrote white het male leads, despite the freedom offered by the genre.

 In short, it isn't just a matter of convincing authors and film/series writers to write more central characters that don't fall into the default type, it is a matter of drastically altering the way in which they perceive the "natural" structure of things, as well as overturning the fear in Hollywood of films that don't fit the formula and yet still succeed, which poses a threat to the people who make a living by bullshitting statistics to 'prove' that the most successful films are ones tailored to the supposedly monolithic audience bloc that will only spend money on films with white, het male leads that spend most of their time centered on the actions and character of the lead, even when they are offscreen (or dead).

(late at night after a long workday, anything that sounds too moronic was probably my brain skipping a beat)
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1229 on: July 05, 2011, 09:48:03 pm »

There needs to be some kind of Bechdel test exception for movies with small casts. Take Hard Candy for example.

Edit: Or "The Fountain." I think it does pass (when the old doctor comforts the wife about dying, if not more) but it's basically a movie where everything anybody does revolves around two characters, one male and one female.

Yeah, it's hard for the "test" to really mean much of anything when every conversation involves the same protagonist and the protagonist is male.
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