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[eux0r]

hm, i have the impression the towns dont really feel natural or logical. dont get me wrong, i think they really look awesome and interesting, just not too much like real towns. but i might also be totally off, i guess one needs to walk in them as an adventurer first to be able to get an impression of whats really going on.

/offtopic

toady, what percentage of the game or how many features(just a number is enough for me), if anything at all, would you personally consider finished(in the sense of not being a placeholder for something else to come)?

[thvaz]

hm, i have the impression the towns dont really feel natural or logical. dont get me wrong, i think they really look awesome and interesting, just not too much like real towns. but i might also be totally off, i guess one needs to walk in them as an adventurer first to be able to get an impression of whats really going on.

Do you mean they don't look like real modern towns or real medieval towns?
I think they are very organic-looking. They don't look planned in any way. There are a lot of details lacking (like windows  on the houses, bins, proper floors (at least on the shops) and workshops (where the goods are produced?)

[Areyar]

Nor food stockpiles in any inns.

Well, there are no inns yet, so there wouldn't be any food stockpiles in them anyway. I didn't see any food shops though, now that you mention it. Also, two shop types are currently always empty, one of them with the general store/cloth sign, and the other with the crown(?) sign, so I guess there's still some things to be done. And just noticed that the shop chests aren't placed for the shopkeepers to keep their money - or is that in cabinets now?

>Yeah, noticed too that the chests were gone. Oh well, this is a peek into the development of town layout. We are expecting too much pollish.
>I figured the shops with the leather-symbol (béta) were inns, because of the beds and cabinets.
>Anyhow, I'd prefer it when the bulk of goods were stored in a warehouse/backroom/attic/cellar and only a selection of goods were presented on tables/cabinets/chests in the actual shop.
e.g. Talk to a shopkeeper to request more of a certain type of item and get told to come back tomorrow or in a few hours, so that shopboy can go to stockpile and retrieve the goods.
Same concept for clothiers etc: to have them produce fitted items. As is, it can be very frustrating to be a rich dwarf tombraider. :p

Tables don't block movement. Shopping would be pretty hard if they did the way things work right now.

huh? I thought they did.

[Rafal99]

I just noticed that all items in the shops have either brownish or light gray background.
Do they all have mud or dust piles under them, or is it a new way to show movable items (so you can differentiate them from placed furniture) ?

Edit: Nevermind. I just checked it in 0.31.25 and it looks the same. The background seems to mean that an item is placed on a table.

[LordZorintrhox]

I think one reason the towns look a little artificial is how the road system is created: it looks like a regular grid of roads is the starting point, forming a graph with four edges per node.  Then several edges are dropped and every node is displaced a random amount not exceeding maybe a third of the initial distance between nodes.  While it creates a reasonably good 'organic roads' look, it doesn't feel terribly organic because it wasn't grown and leads to anomalous intersections like having three roads converge such that all three are on the same side of the intersection instead of being evenly spaced.  Also, curves aren't continuous and we end up with zig-zags.

One advantage is that it creates a road system that preserves some sense of 'blocks' fairly well, which in terms of navigability is a good thing for gameplay.

[Footkerchief]

How are we going to be able to find things in the city? It was unreasonably difficult before cities were HUGE!

This mostly came up before:

Chalk me up for another person who think the cities would likely be a bear to navigate, by the current standards of navigation in Adventure Mode.

When towns have various important buildings in them and other stuff to do, will there be any plans to prevent intra-city walks from being too long and monotonous?

Will there be any kind of navigational tools like signposts or slabposts, or perhaps even a system where villages guide adventurers in place so that the player doesn't easily get lost in these cities?

The things we are looking at now are letting people move along roads on the travel map (they already appear there), and where internal walls make that have too small a resolution, to provide a new zoomed-in-3x map splitting the travel map that a resolution appropriate for all city travel.  Then there's asking directions.  You should not end up having to take 800 steps to get straight across town -- if there is a road without obstacles, it should just be the 15-17 steps on the travel map, and if there's an intervening wall or river, you might have to take ~50 steps on the 3x map.  We'll see how these maps interfere with a sense of exploration in new cities, and then uncover them as you move around, perhaps, or limit their use in extreme cases perhaps.  In any case, I'm going to try to remain mindful of the annoyances.

toady, what percentage of the game or how many features(just a number is enough for me), if anything at all, would you personally consider finished(in the sense of not being a placeholder for something else to come)?

[...] on the subject of version numbering, 0.31 referred at the time to 31 of the specific dev 100 core items being finished.  Then we changed dev systems and the version number was on hold for a while.  Now it refers to being 0% complete done with a new list that counts for 0.69 of the version number, but the new slightly unsettled list pretty much corresponds to the old core items, so it's not much of a change.

The old core items are listed here.

[scriver]

I couldn't see anything that looks like Dwarf Mode workshops in the pictures. Which kind of rooms do you other people think the workshops are?

[KillerClowns]

What are the plans for obtaining armor to fit non-humans? Will an elven/dwarvern smith in a human city produce armor sized for their kind in the human style, or will non-humans have to rely on imports?

[Footkerchief]

What are the plans for obtaining armor to fit non-humans? Will an elven/dwarvern smith in a human city produce armor sized for their kind in the human style, or will non-humans have to rely on imports?

This was partly addressed earlier:

Will size ever matter for trading, and will you ever get the ability to make things sized for creatures larger/smaller than yourself? For example, would a human caravan refuse (or pay less for) dwarf-sized armor because it will be harder to sell? Will you be able to make human-sized armor for trade instead?

Yeah, size will matter in world gen, and it's very likely that non-fitting clothes won't command very much from traders now, if they even want to take up space with them.  I'm not sure about producing clothes for other races.  I guess it makes sense that you should be able to go into that export trade if you want to take a stab at it, but it's not something that's a high priority.

[Greiger]

I'm curious about that too.  Would be nice to be able to speak to a human armorsmith as a dwarven adventurer and pay money to have armor commissioned to be made for your character that you can pick up after a couple days.

Of course I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.  Maybe if the humies just made and sold a small supply of armor sized for the different civs in their shops.  It is a fantasy world after all, doesn't seem too absurd for an armorsmith to have clients of different sizes come in now and then.  Especially since those that do visit the city are likely travelers that have more use for armor than the average citydweller.

EDIT: Thanks Foot.

[Jiri Petru]

I think one reason the towns look a little artificial is how the road system is created

I wholeheartedly agree.

EDIT: But I still find the current towns great and fascinating.

[Areyar]

Given the percentage of non-humans living in cities, there should be a lively trade in goods for these minorities as well.

At the least, inhabitant race should have an impact on demand for specific racial items in the overall trade balance of a comunity/site.

[Psieye]

Given the percentage of non-humans living in cities, there should be a lively trade in goods for these minorities as well.

At the least, inhabitant race should have an impact on demand for specific racial items in the overall trade balance of a comunity/site.

However, given the other races adopt the culture of the humans when settling in human cities, all that means is more booze and small clothing. Somebody is going to make a post once the new version hits exclaiming "I found an elf who's a woodcrafter!"

[Cruxador]

Yeah, those are sewer grates that connect down into the sewer system, with a shaft when necessary (you can see the shafts in some of the pictures, like in the black part near the top of Town 1, el 119, with corresponding grates at el 120).

It is place the temples on small lots now (it is even screwing up and not picking the best ones for some reason), but when I handle market squares I might give the temples some more room as well.  We'll see.  They aren't used by people for ceremonies or anything yet, so the floorspace isn't that important yet, but it should be changed.

Seems to me it would be ideal to have a pretty wide range of temple sizes, considering that throughout history, there's pretty much always been both large, grand places of worship for those who could afford to build such a thing, and smaller churches for folks living in poorer and more remote areas, for less popular gods, or even just for people who didn't or couldn't fit in the big church. I don't know how many non-me people would like to wait for the implementation, but I'd certainly consider it worthwhile.

[Neonivek]

to provide a new zoomed-in-3x map splitting the travel map that a resolution appropriate for all city travel.

Yep that works.

Partially... Actually I'd have to see that in action. In fact... It may not be enough... hmmm *thinkgs hard*