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Author Topic: Question for Christians  (Read 9477 times)

devek

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2011, 12:05:45 am »

Well, they obviously wouldn't be gone, we're not talking about facts we are talking about what a person reported.

What a human could see would be frozen... still even :P

Imagine you were an investigator that showed up at an accident scene, you wouldn't value a person's report over physical evidence. The person doesn't have to be lying to be wrong.
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de5me7

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2011, 03:26:31 pm »

a bit late to this thread but i will try and be helpful

A simplistic description of sin is selfishness - Any act where you put your self infront of God is sinful. So for example, if you gave money to charity to make yourself look good this would be sinful. If you gave money to charity quitely and in 'reverence to God' this would not (matt 6:1-4) might be the most relevant verse here.

Part of Matt 27 goes something like this; Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and Soul, and Mind.

the basic point of the new testiment (and by some interpretations the old) is that No one does this. As Paul puts it in Romans 3:23 All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So the rough argument is that we need Jesus to save us from our sin.

Whilst laws and specific sins are often mentioned in the Bible i dont think they are ment to be definitive or all inclusive. IN Romans 1-3 Paul lays down a reasonably logical argument essentially saying that the Jews could not keep the old testiment law, moralists (both secular and religious) cannot keep their own principles or be saved by them, and that essentially we are all screw without divine help. You may not agree with this (fair enough) but unless a Christian does not recognise any authority from this book, they cannot believe that being a Christian is about following rules and going to heaven for passing the test.

Interestingly Paul makes the main (possibly ownly, he might mention it in another of his letters) new testiment reference to homosexuality. He lists it in a non comprehensive list of sins, for some reason. The general arguement you will get of more evangelical, as apposed to liberal Christians on Homosexuality is that it runs counter to the blue print laid down by God for Christian relationships - Adam and eve / Man and Woman, plus some refs from the OT, and Paul in the NT.

People often use terms such as taking the bible 'literally'. Interpretation of the bible is a little more complex that this. The bible wasnt written to 21st century westerners. It has a cultural and historical context. As an example in 1 Corinthians 11, Paul suggests that Women should cover their heads whilst worshipping God. Does this means all modern churches that dont do this are in the wrong? Is Paul a sexist bigot, possibly. An alternative view is that this was a cultural norm in greek/jewish society 2000 years ago. If you ( im guessing abit here because ive never been to one) a Koptic Christian Church, or a Church in a dominantly Islamic society there would be nothing paricularly controversial about women covering their heads (rightly or wrongly). Perhaps this passage was written to such a social context. I guess from this you could argue this passage has little contemporary relevance. Could you then suggest that the whole bible has no contemporary relevance? I dont think so. The method may have changed but purpose remains the same, pray to God with respect. When it comes into interpretation you have to try and work out what the original writer intended to convey to the original reader, and then see how this is relected today. Some parts of the bible need little interpretation because people and their problems dont change much, some are very culturally defined. Is homosexuality in the bible a cultural stigma of the day, or something that is still to be considered sinful today? I dont know, but i er on the side of caution, not because i hate homosexuals, I have shared a house with two active guys, and never judged them for it, i have no right too (Matt 7 1-6). For Christians there is a difference between how we view people out and inside the church (Cor 5:12). We dont really have any role in judging those outside the church, therefore, i support secular homosexual marriage, if the state however made it a legal necessity that religious groups (christian or other) should carry out same sex marrages with out question, this i would disagree with.

i havent written this huge post inorder to convert, or warp your minds, im trying to give you a persepective your free to disagree with. Its worth saying many Christians will have a differing perspective to me, and i can go into the reasons for that if anyone is interested.
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Strife26

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2011, 02:45:02 am »

That's a really nice description of normal Christian doctrine.
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Hiiri

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2011, 07:34:42 pm »

A simplistic description of sin is selfishness - Any act where you put your self infront of God is sinful. So for example, if you gave money to charity to make yourself look good this would be sinful. If you gave money to charity quitely and in 'reverence to God' this would not (matt 6:1-4) might be the most relevant verse here.

What's the difference between donating money to improve they way people think of you OR to donate money to improve the way God sees you, so you'll get into heaven?

If you ask me, the God option sounds more "selfish." ("Selfish", as in, donating money for any reason would ever be selfish.)
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2011, 12:03:16 am »

Hiiri, u missed the point.  Giving money to charity is done out of love, not a need for it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying a way into heaven, which doesnt work. 
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lemon10

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2011, 07:27:42 am »

Question about Eve+Adam eating the fruit:
God is omniscient
Therefore God knows the future (something that is backed up by the numerous prophecies in the bible that predict into the future)
Therefore God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit when he put it there even if he told them not to eat it.

Is my logic off there at any point?

Because to me that seems a bit evil to punish someone so severely for something that you know they would do and set up so that they would have to do it.
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G-Flex

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2011, 07:30:40 am »

Yeah, it's kind of hard to justify things like free will when pretty much the entirety of human (and other) history is entirely up to God to begin with.
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Shambling Zombie

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2011, 08:10:53 am »

It is hard to think of a good excuse for something with the power to stop great harm, and the knowledge of said harm, allowing it to happen anyway. Although many would say it all has a purpose, or is part of a plan. I, myself, would hope a deity could make a plan that didn't involve such things.
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Phmcw

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2011, 11:50:38 am »

Hiiri, u missed the point.  Giving money to charity is done out of love, not a need for it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying a way into heaven, which doesnt work.

His point is : being good for god's sake isn't really commendable given you're just buying your way into heaven.
Actually it's my main problem with religion : you're end up doing anything that god say, regardless your take on his requirements. I'll go as far as saying that if god existed, I still wouldn't be a Christian, given that I'd still trust my own judgment, and follow my own morality.
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lemon10

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2011, 01:40:29 pm »

Hiiri, u missed the point.  Giving money to charity is done out of love, not a need for it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying a way into heaven, which doesnt work.

His point is : being good for god's sake isn't really commendable given you're just buying your way into heaven.
Actually it's my main problem with religion : you're end up doing anything that god say, regardless your take on his requirements. I'll go as far as saying that if god existed, I still wouldn't be a Christian, given that I'd still trust my own judgment, and follow my own morality.
His point is that's not what was being said, you can't buy your way into heaven.

Also, if god was proven real somehow, and you decided to go through eternal damnation just so you could follow your own morality, then you strike me as quite stupid.
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Phmcw

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2011, 03:10:05 pm »

Hiiri, u missed the point.  Giving money to charity is done out of love, not a need for it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying a way into heaven, which doesnt work.

His point is : being good for god's sake isn't really commendable given you're just buying your way into heaven.
Actually it's my main problem with religion : you're end up doing anything that god say, regardless your take on his requirements. I'll go as far as saying that if god existed, I still wouldn't be a Christian, given that I'd still trust my own judgment, and follow my own morality.
His point is that's not what was being said, you can't buy your way into heaven.

Also, if god was proven real somehow, and you decided to go through eternal damnation just so you could follow your own morality, then you strike me as quite stupid.

Why? The first testament god is quite awful. Would you accept the murder of homosexuals and the belittlement of women out of fear for eternal damnation? Would you accept to be second class human because you don't belong to the nation of the chosen poeple? What if you, in fact, don't agree with god?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 03:12:07 pm by Phmcw »
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2011, 03:18:40 pm »

Hiiri, u missed the point.  Giving money to charity is done out of love, not a need for it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying a way into heaven, which doesnt work.

His point is : being good for god's sake isn't really commendable given you're just buying your way into heaven.
Actually it's my main problem with religion : you're end up doing anything that god say, regardless your take on his requirements. I'll go as far as saying that if god existed, I still wouldn't be a Christian, given that I'd still trust my own judgment, and follow my own morality.
His point is that's not what was being said, you can't buy your way into heaven.

Also, if god was proven real somehow, and you decided to go through eternal damnation just so you could follow your own morality, then you strike me as quite stupid.

you would instead "buy your way into heaven" by following god's commands out of fear of going to hell?

lemon10

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2011, 03:01:19 am »

Hiiri, u missed the point.  Giving money to charity is done out of love, not a need for it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying a way into heaven, which doesnt work.

His point is : being good for god's sake isn't really commendable given you're just buying your way into heaven.
Actually it's my main problem with religion : you're end up doing anything that god say, regardless your take on his requirements. I'll go as far as saying that if god existed, I still wouldn't be a Christian, given that I'd still trust my own judgment, and follow my own morality.
His point is that's not what was being said, you can't buy your way into heaven.

Also, if god was proven real somehow, and you decided to go through eternal damnation just so you could follow your own morality, then you strike me as quite stupid.

you would instead "buy your way into heaven" by following god's commands out of fear of going to hell?
Thats not "buying your way into heaven" that's like saying by not going crazy and killing people you are "buying your way out of prison". But yes, of course I would.

Hiiri, u missed the point.  Giving money to charity is done out of love, not a need for it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying a way into heaven, which doesnt work.

His point is : being good for god's sake isn't really commendable given you're just buying your way into heaven.
Actually it's my main problem with religion : you're end up doing anything that god say, regardless your take on his requirements. I'll go as far as saying that if god existed, I still wouldn't be a Christian, given that I'd still trust my own judgment, and follow my own morality.
His point is that's not what was being said, you can't buy your way into heaven.

Also, if god was proven real somehow, and you decided to go through eternal damnation just so you could follow your own morality, then you strike me as quite stupid.

Why? The first testament god is quite awful. Would you accept the murder of homosexuals and the belittlement of women out of fear for eternal damnation? Would you accept to be second class human because you don't belong to the nation of the chosen poeple? What if you, in fact, don't agree with god?
Yes, i would accept the murder of homosexuals the belittlement of women, and even being a second class citizen. If heaven/hell does exist, pretty much anything would be worth it to get in heaven and avoid hell.
The reason is that the afterlife is eternal, so even if it meant that I had to be a slave for 50 years and go to heaven, or life richly and go to hell, i would chose being a slave.
While your moral points might make sense while you are alive, I think that after a million years in hell you might begin to have second thoughts about choosing to be moral over choosing to have eternal happiness.

Lets run a cost benefit analysis, say 1 year in heaven is worth 1 year of living like a king and 1 year in hell is worth 1 year of being a slave and beaten daily (yes, heaven and hell are better/worse then that, but i purposely chose low numbers). So if you had to endure 100 years of hardship to go to heaven, then it would be a far better deal then 100 years of being happy on earth and going to hell. Even if you increase the numbers to 1000 years of living like a king/slave, or a million years, getting to heaven is still a much better deal.
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devek

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2011, 03:06:17 am »

Yes, i would accept the murder of homosexuals the belittlement of women, and even being a second class citizen. If heaven/hell does exist, pretty much anything would be worth it to get in heaven and avoid hell.
The reason is that the afterlife is eternal, so even if it meant that I had to be a slave for 50 years and go to heaven, or life richly and go to hell, i would chose being a slave.
While your moral points might make sense while you are alive, I think that after a million years in hell you might begin to have second thoughts about choosing to be moral over choosing to have eternal happiness.

So only evil and unethical people can get into heaven?

The concept stinks. If god really is like that, he can kiss my ass. 

(That is why I like Jews, they don't believe in any of that.)
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lemon10

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Re: Question for Christians
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2011, 03:47:08 am »

Yes, i would accept the murder of homosexuals the belittlement of women, and even being a second class citizen. If heaven/hell does exist, pretty much anything would be worth it to get in heaven and avoid hell.
The reason is that the afterlife is eternal, so even if it meant that I had to be a slave for 50 years and go to heaven, or life richly and go to hell, i would chose being a slave.
While your moral points might make sense while you are alive, I think that after a million years in hell you might begin to have second thoughts about choosing to be moral over choosing to have eternal happiness.

So only evil and unethical people can get into heaven?

The concept stinks. If god really is like that, he can kiss my ass. 

(That is why I like Jews, they don't believe in any of that.)
No, you completely misunderstood what I said.
I said I would be evil and unethical if it meant that I got to go into heaven (or a significantly better afterlife of any kind).

Generally if someone is sexist/hate gays/racist, its not because it says so in the bible, but that they use the bible to justify what they believe (although the bible is pretty clear about some things, people still manage to misinterpret even those things it says outright).

EDIT: That said, you are right, the god of the old testament is a pretty nasty piece of work, and the bible is fine with/supports slavery/sexism/homophobia/(other bad things).
(That is why I like Jews, they don't believe in any of that.)
Don't believe what?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 03:51:54 am by lemon10 »
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And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.
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