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[devek]

They don't believe in heaven or hell.

No matter how you slice it, the concept is illogical and immoral.

It isn't even necessary, if you god came down and gave you a pass to do whatever you wanted for a day without consequence you wouldn't start killing people and raping children.

[lemon10]

They don't believe in heaven or hell.

Apparently you are wrong on that.

Spoiler: wall of text from a website (click to show/hide)

Judgment

Traditional Judaism includes belief in both heaven and hell, as we will see below. How is one's destination decided? The School of Shammai offered this description:

    There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence" [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them" [Zechariah 13:9]... [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]

The school of Hillel suggested a more merciful view, in which the middle group are sent directly to Gan Eden (Heaven) instead of Gehinnom after death. Rabbi Hanina added that all who go down to Gehinnom will go up again, except adulterers, those who put their fellows to shame in public, and those who call their fellows by an obnoxious name [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Metzia 58b].

The Talmud teaches that all Israel will have a share in Olam Ha-Ba, but makes some notable exceptions:

    All Israelites have a share in the world-to-come... [However], these are they that have no share in the world-to-come: one who says there is no resurrection of the dead prescribed in the Torah, and that the Torah is not from Heaven, and an Epicurean. (Sanhedrin 10:1)

General Jewish belief is that one need not be Jewish to enjoy Heaven. "Moses Maimonides, echoing the Tosefta to Sanhedrin, maintained that the pious of all the nations of the world have a portion in the world-to-come [Mishneh Torah, Repentance 3:5]."
Gan Eden: Heaven

In Judaism, the eternal destination for the righteous is Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden). It is generally described as a place of great joy and peace. Talmudic imagery includes: sitting at golden banquet tables (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Taanit 25a) or at stools of gold (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Ketubot 77b), enjoying lavish banquets (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Batra 75a), or celebrating the Sabbath, enjoying sunshine and sexual intercourse (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Berachot 57b).

On the other hand, other sages have offered a more spiritual view of Gad Eden. Rav suggested that there will be neither eating nor drinking; no procreation of children or business transactions, no envy or hatred or rivalry; but sitting enthroned, their crowns on their heads, enjoying the Shechinah [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Berachot 17a (3rd century CE)] . Maimonides agreed, explaining:

    In the world to come, there is nothing corporeal, and no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies -- like the ministering angels... The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body. (Mishneh Torah, Repentance 8 )

Gehinnom: Hell

The Jewish concept of the afterlife for the wicked is less developed. Known as Gehinnom (Gehenna in Yiddish) or Sheo'l, it has its foundations in the dark pit described in the Torah (see above) and an actual place where a pagan cult conducted rituals included burning children (see the description in II Kings 23:10 and Jeremiah 7:31).

Gehinnom is the postmortem destination of unrighteous Jews and Gentiles. In one reference, the souls in Gehinnom are punished for up to 12 months. After the appropriate period of purification, the righteous continue on to Gan Eden (Rabbi Akiba and Babylonian Talmud, tractate Eduyot 2:10). The wicked endure the full year of punishment then are either annihilated ("After 12 months, their body is consumed and their soul is burned and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous (Rosh Hashanah 17a)") or continue to be punished.

This belief is the basis for the Jewish practice of mourning and asking blessings on deceased loved ones for only 11 months (one would not wish to imply that the departed needed the full 12 months of purification).

[Phmcw]

Lemon10 your position is awful : and now, given that there is no afterlife what would you do to have a better live?

If god is like it is described by the old testament, it is totally worth fighting against, whatever the costs.

[lemon10]

If god is like it is described by the old testament, it is totally worth fighting against, whatever the costs.

Errr.... Fighting? You can't fight something that is immortal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and convinced that it determines morality. The best your "fighting" can do is get yourself thrown into hell after you die with no effects. If everyone "fought" god, then everyone would get thrown in hell, it's that simple.

Lemon10 your position is awful : and now, given that there is no afterlife what would you do to have a better live?

I can't understand what your trying to ask, rephrase it please.

No matter how you slice it, the concept is illogical and immoral.

Personally I agree, nothing you can do in a mortal lifetime can possibly justify a eternity of pain without hope of redemption, yeah, the christian god (especially from the old testament), is kinda a dick.

[devek]

While the heaven/hell concept is an afterlife, not all theories on the afterlife are heaven and hell. Even atheists will individually have thoughts on the afterlife, but that doesn't make it heaven or hell because those are specifically christian.

What I know is from my Jewish friends, and what they will tell you about the afterlife will vary differently than what other Jews will say. Their religion is pretty old One nice thing that they all agree on is, regardless of what happens, anyone who isn't a dick will be ok and it doesn't matter what religion they follow. An ethical Muslim is just as well off as an orthodox Jew.

Lemon10 your position is awful : and now, given that there is no afterlife what would you do to have a better live?

There is no reason for an afterlife. I mean, do your skin cells get an afterlife? I like to believe that my impact on the world is forever, and I live on through my children. Once you've had children, your mind opens to the point that you don't care so much about yourself.

EDIT: And finally, the question you have to ask yourself is.. would you live your life any differently if you knew there was or was not an afterlife? I wouldn't.

[lemon10]

There is no reason for an afterlife. I mean, do your skin cells get an afterlife? I like to believe that my impact on the world is forever, and I live on through my children. Once you've had children, your mind opens to the point that you don't care so much about yourself.

You seem to have misunderstood what I am saying. Everything I was saying is based on the postulate that if there is a afterlife, and knew what would help me get into it, something I don't actually believe.

I am a aetheist and in my opinion, the whole concept of a afterlife is pretty human centric and their is no reason that their would be one, if their was a being that was capable of making a afterlife and transporting human minds (as the concept of a soul is also extremely human centric) to the afterlife at the moment of death, I doubt it would care about humanity at all, or bother with making a afterlife.

EDIT: And finally, the question you have to ask yourself is.. would you live your life any differently if you knew there was or was not an afterlife? I wouldn't.

Yes, depending on what the afterlife was.
So you wouldn't live life differently if for instance you found out that if you die with a full head of hair then you would be tormented for all eternity?
If i found out that Valhalla was real (and that its either valhalla or Hel's realm (a place ruled by the giant Hel that is strikingly similar to hell), then i would probably join the military and die in battle.

Can you honestly say that you wouldn't change a thing if you found out that writing with a red pen more often then a black pen would send you to a perfect afterlife, while eating fish more often then you eat mean would send you to the worst one imaginable?

[jester]

Little random and off topic, but I dream of God/jesus/satan/whatever turning up to rule over us again from on high and someone dumping a nuke on it/him/whatever.  As an atheist the idea of a creator being who didnt see stuff likes nukes and railguns coming makes alot of sense to me.   
  Ditto having a "jailbreak" from hell if there is some sort of physical/energy location on the thing.  Would god be impressed with someone who capped satan?

[devek]

Can you honestly say that you wouldn't change a thing if you found out that writing with a red pen more often then a black pen would send you to a perfect afterlife, while eating fish more often then you eat mean would send you to the worst one imaginable?

Yes. Someone would essentially be holding a gun to my head telling me to use a red pen. Anyone who does something like that is my enemy. If I have to die or suffer I don't want to do it on my knees.

The only exception is that it might not be about me. When dealing with non-hypothetical situations I have suffered and made "deals with the devil" for the sake of my child, so I might make my choice differently depending on how it impacted her. If there was a hell, I would want to be down there fighting for her

I do agree with you on the whole "how would the mind transfer" thing. It is weird watching people you are close to suffer from strokes/brain damage. That will change a person's outlook on what a mind is real fast.

[GlyphGryph]

I'm suddenly reminded of "The Salvation War"
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSalvationWar

Heheh.

An no, traditionally Judaism does not have a hell, at least, not the way Christians do. I mean, there are conflicting interpretations, but most are closer to "if you don't go to heaven, you DIE and become nothing"  than the standard Christian interpretation of everlasting torment. Simple oblivion was more than enough, and the little excerpt seems to reinforce that as a common interpretation.

[lemon10]

Can you honestly say that you wouldn't change a thing if you found out that writing with a red pen more often then a black pen would send you to a perfect afterlife, while eating fish more often then you eat mean would send you to the worst one imaginable?

Yes. Someone would essentially be holding a gun to my head telling me to use a red pen. Anyone who does something like that is my enemy. If I have to die or suffer I don't want to do it on my knees.

But the choice isn't death or suffering. The choice is a short period of discomfort or a fate far worse then death, personally I would chose the discomfort.

If a police officer walked up to you when you were 15 (so you don't have any kids to worry about) and said "give me your wallet or I will shoot you and say you assaulted me", would you A) give him your wallet, or B) run away/try to take his gun away.
B would be more noble, but it would also be extremely stupid, while A would be what a non-suicidal person would do.

I'm suddenly reminded of "The Salvation War"
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSalvationWar

Yeah, I was just thinking about that but couldn't remember what it was called.

An no, traditionally Judaism does not have a hell, at least, not the way Christians do. I mean, there are conflicting interpretations, but most are closer to "if you don't go to heaven, you DIE and become nothing"  than the standard Christian interpretation of everlasting torment. Simple oblivion was more than enough, and the little excerpt seems to reinforce that as a common interpretation.

What I know is from my Jewish friends, and what they will tell you about the afterlife will vary differently than what other Jews will say. Their religion is pretty old One nice thing that they all agree on is, regardless of what happens, anyone who isn't a dick will be ok and it doesn't matter what religion they follow. An ethical Muslim is just as well off as an orthodox Jew.

Huh, never knew that. Well its quite interesting, for some reason I thought that they believed in heaven and hell like Christians did.

[Hiiri]

Can you honestly say that you wouldn't change a thing if you found out that writing with a red pen more often then a black pen would send you to a perfect afterlife, while eating fish more often then you eat mean would send you to the worst one imaginable?

Yes. Someone would essentially be holding a gun to my head telling me to use a red pen. Anyone who does something like that is my enemy. If I have to die or suffer I don't want to do it on my knees.

But the choice isn't death or suffering. The choice is a short period of discomfort or a fate far worse then death, personally I would chose the discomfort.

If a police officer walked up to you when you were 15 (so you don't have any kids to worry about) and said "give me your wallet or I will shoot you and say you assaulted me", would you A) give him your wallet, or B) run away/try to take his gun away.
B would be more noble, but it would also be extremely stupid, while A would be what a non-suicidal person would do.

I gotta somewhat agree here, I think most of us would choose the option A no matter what they say now. Buuuut it's kinda impossible question to answer, as I don't think any of us knows what we would REALLY do in such a situation.

But the thing with religion is that we're not talking about little things like losing your money, using the right colored pen etc... we're talking about stoning your child to death for disobedience and such sick shit. Even if Christian God tortured his(?) son to death, I don't think modern men and women would do it to save themselves from hell.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Hiiri- yes they would, in a blink.  The sum total of human history shows how we are willing to throw each otehr under the bus for nearly freaking anything. 

Also, most of you are all arguing about different things.  You cannot argue heaven and hell in Christianity without first accepting/understanding the facts of Christian heaven and hell, which only Lemon10 is, the rest of you are attacking it from a position that is tangential to the actual discussion and missing the points directly. 

Secondly, I dont really care what you think jews think from your hearsay friends who may or may not be completely full of shit, this is about the Christian heaven.

Thirdly, if you dont beleive in free will and would fight the old testament god......then you are stating he made you do it, and are doing exactly what he wants........duh...........logic fail.  Course, if we really do have free will..........then your argument collapses again.  Sucks huh.


Quote from: devek on May 01, 2011, 05:10:29 am

EDIT: And finally, the question you have to ask yourself is.. would you live your life any differently if you knew there was or was not an afterlife? I wouldn't.

Thats ridiculous.  So, if, when faced with the factual undeniable truth of the existence of your creater, the omnicient and omnipotent being who granted you existence in return for nothing more than beleiveing in him, which determines your immortal existence in either heaven or hell, you wouldnt change anything you do?  What a load of bullshit.

[Phmcw]

Lemon10 the thing is : read the old testament ; god doesn't ask for belief, he ask for utter and complete devotion or he shall torture you for all eternity. Obey his every whim or it's concentration camp for ever. So for me, he's pretty much awful : hate homosexual ,check, ask for complete obedience, check, favor an ethnia? (the chosen people) ,check, kill/torture anyone who disagree ,check...
To keep your analogy with the policeman ,he's not asking for my wallet, he's trying to rape me with a spiked rake. Yeah i'd try to fight, even if I know that all odds are against me.

Thirdly, if you dont beleive in free will and would fight the old testament god......then you are stating he made you do it, and are doing exactly what he wants........duh...........logic fail.  Course, if we really do have free will..........then your argument collapses again.  Sucks huh.

Completely irrelevant, beside I'm not talking about anyone belief but a literal reading of the old testament.

Thats ridiculous.  So, if, when faced with the factual undeniable truth of the existence of your creater, the omnicient and omnipotent being who granted you existence in return for nothing more than beleiveing in him, which determines your immortal existence in either heaven or hell, you wouldnt change anything you do?  What a load of bullshit.

There is no religion where he only ask for belief. Beside wtf, why would a cosmic being ask for blind belief? That's... what?
So he ask us to belief in him in order to give us eternal bliss because? I believe in rocks, in tree, in grass and in the color green because they are frigging right before my eyes. Making the humanity believe in god is easy : just drop in for a beer every century or so. What kind of stupid god would play hide and seek and reward those who take the illogical decision? 

Edit: for you goro, the equivalent question would be : what if "god" is actually ben Laden's god.

[Phmcw]

error

[Cthulhu]

or he shall torture you for all eternity.

Old Testament never mentions eternal torment.  First suggestions of Hell are in the New Testament and even then unless you're looking at it from the presupposition of hell (Which is how I think the idea gets entrenched.  If you assume hell exists then the Bible seems to corroborate it but I think if you had never heard of such a concept and read the original manuscripts you wouldn't come to that conclusion) it isn't really there.  Most (All?) mentions of Hell in the Old Testament actually translate to sheol, or the grave.

I'm of the belief that humans are either conditionally immortal or just plain mortal.  I haven't made up my mind on which and I don't think I ever will.