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[Dave1004]

You know, Dwarves aren't THAT small. Three to three and a half feet, they're of decent size. And, dwarves can jump...*sigh*.

Well, it was a try...

@tsen: That's the spirit lad!

@Jeo: I gave deds to Forgotten Realms...

[stabbymcstabstab]

i support this thread i would love having battle ragers ripping hippies to threads with even crazier and drunk dwarfs sounds awsome.
also the books are great

[catoblepas]

Why not just use wrestlers in plate armor decorated with spikes? It's basically the same thing, If you want, you could give them a custom nickname 'battlerager'.

[stabbymcstabstab]

because wrestlers gust rip off limbs battle ragers butcher them so its easier to get goblin bone bolts for you marksdwarves we just need to shot dwarves out of catapault...

[Jeoshua]

Oh my GOD guys.  Dwarf Fortress has one of the most realistic combat systems out there, bar a few problems with weapon effectiveness (Whips should not be better than Warhammers at penetration, for example).  And you want to take it down enough notches to put spiky bondage suits and dwarven bearhugs into it.

Cause if this was put in, and the combat system wasn't changed to make it actually work like you want it to (IE, new mechanics (ie cheating it in)), your "battlerager" would die.  Dead.  Sliced up.  WHAM WHAM.

And then the Gobbo would be all "Now who else wanna f--- wit Hollywood Cole?"

[Jeoshua]

Here is why "Battlerager spikes" would never work in real life:

Code: [Select]

~|    ~
~|    ~
~|==> ~
~|    ~
~|    ~

~ = Skin
| = Armor surface
You know which one is the spike, right?

At first, all seems well.

Code: [Select]

~|  ~
~|  ~
~|==> O
~|  ~
~|  ~

The O is a bone

Here, the spike has penetrated the enemy's amazingly unarmored skin.  Score, right? But he's hit a bone.  Bodies have lots of those.  Let's see what happens in the next frame, shall we?

Code: [Select]

~|~
~|~
==>O
~|~
~|~

Now, the spike is embeded in BOTH peoples' flesh.  Great weapon, one that hurts you just as much as the enemy.  Not to mention, now you're stuck together.  Not to mention the fact that if the enemy is wearing armor, the spikes wouldn't even make them twitch in pain in the slightest.

My avatar isn't a battlerager because I think his weapons would work.  Rather, I imagine him dying horribly against all takers, in true DF style.

In summation, I suppose there is a moral to this:

Spiky armor would tear fleshy, boneless, unarmored targets to tiny pieces.  But if you're going up against fleshy, boneless, unarmored targets that AREN'T fleshballs... well then you're obviously not playing Dwarf Fortress (unless it's a titan.  Enjoy losing your life to it's Toxic Secretions as you try and hugrape it to death).

I wouldn't on the other hand, mind it if armor that "menaces with spikes of ?" made an enemy more likely to run away, due to the fact that it's menacing.  Armor quality and decorations could make a good warrior look even more intimidating.  They just shouldn't do any damage, and you can still have your spiky armor that's useful.

[harborpirate]

I've been purposely avoiding posting in this thread, hoping it would die.

It hasn't.

I guess if Toady implemented metal spikes on armor doing damage during wrestling, thats fine, but...
admittedly not having read any Forgotten Realms, this concept just seems laughable. As in, the type of reason many people think fantasy is silly or stupid.

[nil]

Now, the spike is embeded in BOTH peoples' flesh.  Great weapon, one that hurts you just as much as the enemy.  Not to mention, now you're stuck together.  Not to mention the fact that if the enemy is wearing armor, the spikes wouldn't even make them twitch in pain in the slightest.

Wait, why are you assuming that a spike would get reverse-driven through the armor it is attached to when it meets an obstruction?  I don't see how that follows, seems to me it would just bounce off or whatever.

[Jeoshua]

How doesn't it follow, exactly? Take a pencil.  Hold it perpendicular to your hand, pointing down.  Eraser end touching your skin, point facing downward towards a table.

Now slam your hand down onto the table, holding the pencil's eraser to your palm with your other hand.

On second thought, don't do this.  You will hurt yourself.

[nil]

How doesn't it follow, exactly? Take a pencil.  Hold it perpendicular to your hand, pointing down.  Eraser end touching your skin, point facing downward towards a table.

Now slam your hand down onto the table, holding the pencil's eraser to your palm with your other hand.

On second thought, don't do this.  You will hurt yourself.

Well, if the spikes were attached to cloth or leather or nothing at all, sure.  But if its a steel breastplate or helm...  plus, I imagine a spike as something more like a cone than a pencil, much better at penetrating one direction than the other.

[Urist McAddict]

Even though medieval knights wouldn't go anywhere in a steel plate filled with spikes, Vikings sure loved putting spikes on their shields and shoulder pads, just like a dagger can work its way through the blind spots in armor, a dwarf colliding with some spikes around his shoulders or armpieces would at least pierce some leather armors and bare skin, would not be a preferable weapon, but would be nice to cause some damage with collision.
Also, in medieval combat, i'm quite sure you wouldn't see ppl wrestling in mid battle, but irrational beasts like those in DF would stil hurt themselves by bashing a spike on the dorf, would make sense. If i was a dorf in a friggin fortress, i'd be damned if i didn't strap some blades on my armor to get that extra bleeding.
Shurikens are a good example, they weren't a awesome weapon by themselves, but get an enemy trying to fight while bleeding from small cuts and holes, they'll lose effectiveness... That's how things are supposed to be in a fantasy world, of course the dwarf hugger would be kinda lame, but using the push from collision and such would be nice.

[catoblepas]

As has already been said, there are already wrestlers in DF, and you can already decorate armor with spikes, and that it isn't really as effective as more conventional weapons. That being said, if you really want to be able to attack with your armor, I have a workaround of sorts for you:

paste this into the item_weapon file:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HARNESS]
[NAME:spiked harness:spiked harnesses]
[SIZE:200]
[SKILL:WRESTLING]
[TWO_HANDED:90000]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:EDGE:1000:800:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5:1000:skewer:skewers:NO_SUB:1000]

And this into the entity_default file under the entry for [ENTITY:MOUNTAIN]:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HARNESS]

Then you will have a spiked harness that uses the wrestling skill and is wielded in two hands. Stat-wise, it is about as effective as a dagger, but since wrestlers can be trained faster and with less danger then other forms of soldiers, since they don't have to train in a weapon skill, it could be useful. I have tested it in arena mode and achieved a kill with it, and I have tested it in DF mode, where the dwarf I assigned the weapon to equipped it with no problems.

I hope that helped.

[Vattic]

Wrestling with spikes on your armour wouldn't be a good idea. Imagine getting pinned and being unable to roll out of it because of a spike on your armour. Anyone who's read / seen Dune will know what I mean.

Wrestling in armour on the other hand is partly where Jujutsu comes from. I was told that it was for fighting on holy ground where drawing weapons was forbidden but I can't find any sources. Apparently a lightly armoured opponent could find grappling useful against a heavily armoured counterpart, though, it does note that weapons would be in use too. Source

[Kruniac]

How doesn't it follow, exactly? Take a pencil.  Hold it perpendicular to your hand, pointing down.  Eraser end touching your skin, point facing downward towards a table.

Now slam your hand down onto the table, holding the pencil's eraser to your palm with your other hand.

On second thought, don't do this.  You will hurt yourself.

I understand the physics of this, but you're really generalizing armor construction. I mean, we don't have to be talking about a leather piece of armor with a metal spike glued on it.

What about a steel breastplate with reinforced plates binding a spike in place? No dwarf will be able to move with enough force that the spike penetrates back into the dwarf, but could easily penetrate skin (or perhaps bone).

At any rate. A battlerager dwarf covered in spikes might not be effective in wrestling because if there are too many spikes, the surface area of the spikes' affected area would be larger, therefore you wouldn't get as much penetration.

On the other hand, a few well placed spikes (an upward pointing spiked knee area?) would do horrible things to people.

Bottom line - a battlerager with spikes would cause horrible injuries to animals, unarmored parts, and so on. A dwarf grabbing a goblin by the leg would most likely grind that leg's meat terribly against his spikes.

[Jeoshua]

Oh god, really? I thought this discussion had finally ended.

It's a stupid idea that was made up by a fantasy writer who thought that Dwarves hugging people to death would be funny.  It is funny, but is it really effective? No.  It doesn't fit DF's feel at all, point blank.  It doesn't ring true as a viable combat option for DF's very realistic-feeling combat system.  And it certainly doesn't seem like it would work well at all against the kind of monsters you'd go up against in any DF game.

The entire idea of "battleragers" as posited in this thread and in the story it comes from is ludicrous.  If you just want Dwarven Berzerkers, guess what? We have them already.  But if you want, as I've called them before, spiky bondage suits where Dwarves can Hump-rape people to death, don't hold your breath.

I'd actually stop playing DF if stupid things like this became commonplace in this game, and I'm far from the only one.

On the other hand, a few well placed spikes (an upward pointing spiked knee area?) would do horrible things to people.

Ahem... Sorry if I sounded a bit angry.  This part of the idea is not bad.  But it's not a "battlerager suit"... it's a knee weapon.  That? I would actually like to see, and seems like a viable combat option.

But that wasn't what this thread was suggesting.

Let it die? Please?