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Author Topic: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)  (Read 41189 times)

Eagleon

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #450 on: March 30, 2011, 01:26:52 pm »

Whoosh. That's the sound of you completely missing the point. The things you said had nothing to do with the things I said. Period. There was no overlap. I say "Heterosexuals can have children that are genetically the offspring of both parents, homosexuals can't." You say "Homosexuals can do these others things". Yes. They can. And your point is? Heterosexuals can do those things to. If you want to counter my argument that heteros have a single choice more, you need to actually counter it, not ignore.
There's also the possibility down the line of eggs/sperm differentiated from stem-cells. But I guess I just don't see it as a problem, to the point where I didn't even see your caveat "equally parts "theirs"" originally as meaning genetically from both parents. A baby is a baby - most of the similarities come from influences while the kid is raised, not in the womb. I know plenty of people think otherwise, but it doesn't hold up to data.

I do wonder about something though. Say somebody has a religion that holds values that contradict homosexuality, like heavy emphasis on families and Husband and Wife and all that stuff. Their doctrine of dealing with evils of the world is to love them as their own family to slowly improve it through association and example.
 Would such a person be homophobic? They are technically anti-gay, but what they would do is exactly the same as if they are pro-gay.
I hate to bring it out kicking in screaming into the open (and I really hope it doesn't cause some big argument), but this is basically Christianity without much apology. The problem is that it rarely works out like that. Namely, Christianity is often followed without regard to its core tenet of love and forgiveness whenever and wherever it's convenient. This is because neither are easy. I have no problems with Christianity as a doctrine, it's actually quite nice, but people take things out of proportion too much. I've never seen a supportive or unrepressive family that was also against their kid's sexual orientation, and I have a lot of friends like this.

For a hypothetical religion that has this and no stigma attached, I guess it could happen. It's just that, by and large, the original reason people have been against alternate sexualities is because they're afraid of some instability or threat they might cause them. Looking at the social background for Judeo-Christian societies, it's pretty obvious that was from a perceived threat to lineage and succession, which in turn was the result of women being unable to hold power or authority over a family. I can't see hypothetical non-Christian religion turning out any differently based on how you've described it. Even if it were matrilineal or both, the emphasis on family would likely attach a stigma to any pairing that didn't produce offspring.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #451 on: March 30, 2011, 01:32:14 pm »

Quote
A baby is a baby - most of the similarities come from influences while the kid is raised, not in the womb. I know plenty of people think otherwise, but it doesn't hold up to data.

Its fine for you to think that, but enough people don't that it becomes a real issue of choice. Personally, I'd be fine with adopting - my fiance feels very strongly that she wants a kid (at least the first one) to be both of ours genetically. Trivialize such preferences all you want in your own head, it is a real issue that many people desire, to have something made from both parties in the relationship, and being homosexual means that with anything approaching our current technology, you simply don't have that choice.
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Eagleon

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #452 on: March 30, 2011, 01:40:14 pm »

Its fine for you to think that, but enough people don't that it becomes a real issue of choice. Personally, I'd be fine with adopting - my fiance feels very strongly that she wants a kid (at least the first one) to be both of ours genetically. Trivialize such preferences all you want in your own head, it is a real issue that many people desire, to have something made from both parties in the relationship, and being homosexual means that with anything approaching our current technology, you simply don't have that choice.
I wasn't trivializing it. I didn't understand your original argument the way you intended it. Anyway, the technology is available to us now. Both sperm and egg cells have been differentiated from stem cells. This would constitute a sort of cloning (currently banned), though, not to mention using embryonic stem cells, and lots of people don't like that. Again, a social reason.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #453 on: March 30, 2011, 02:06:31 pm »

Are they actually offering treatments of this sort? That's actually pretty damn interesting, and there's definitely market demand for it.
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Eagleon

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #454 on: March 30, 2011, 02:17:57 pm »

Not yet. At least, not in the open. As I said, it constitutes cloning under current law, which is very illegal, at least in the US. It would be difficult to get a legitimate venture like this going, with all the logistics involved. Lots of people to keep quiet. It's not going to happen until the current ban is amended to allow for it, which is going to be an uphill battle, and in the mean time scientists are going to play it safe, because their careers are on the line if it turns out there's something we didn't predict about it. There's more issues here for men than there are for women - mainly keeping the egg from having a y chromosome, plus finding a surrogate of course.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #455 on: March 30, 2011, 02:51:30 pm »

I don't understand why it would be considered cloning. It's just stem cell differentiation - you're still required to actually have the thing you make fertilize or be fertilized, right? Heck, even if you have your own differentiated sperm fertilize your own differentiated egg it still wouldn't be cloning.
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Eagleon

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #456 on: March 30, 2011, 03:02:44 pm »

I tried to dig up information on what the law exactly says, only to discover it's a state issue and that the UN law is hopelessly vague. So wherever I heard that it was considered cloning might have been referring to any single one of their laws. TLDR - Disregard, I <blank>. I still haven't heard of any company that's looking to do this yet, though.
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #457 on: March 30, 2011, 05:00:02 pm »

Personally, I got no problem with gays, at all. I'm also quite religious but I really don't care of someone's gay or not. It couldn't matter less to me.

I think gay marriage should be legal everywhere but I don't care enough to be protesting. Not legalizing gay marriage is unconstitutional, I would say. And that's pretty much everything.
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G-Flex

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #458 on: March 30, 2011, 05:54:08 pm »

I gotta say, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to communicate here, probably why I couldn't figure out how it relates. The core seems to be that I have no idea what you mean when you say "binary sexual orientation", I think. Care to define?

Binary. As in two possibilities. As in, no room allowed for bisexuality or any other sort of sexual orientation aside from "gay" and "straight".

Ternary sexual orientation would refer to straight/bi/gay, which is also a pretty bad approximation of reality for many, many people.

Quote
While I have no idea what you mean with binary here - The choice it gives is pretty much exactly limited to the one I brought up, and its pretty crappy! But it doesn't change the fact that heterosexuals have slightly more choice in total - they can have a baby as a couple naturally, use a third party, artificially inseminate, or adopt. Homosexuals cannot do one of those. It is a REAL choice that homosexuals don't have. I don't think its a particularly valuable choice, all told, but it exists. And bisexuals have what is essentially a doubled pool of potential sexual partners. That is definitely a lot more choice there.

Dude, if you have no idea what I'm even saying, I suggest figuring it out before responding.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #459 on: March 30, 2011, 07:15:58 pm »

Quote from: G-Flex
strictly heterosexual or bisexual is an extremely silly thing to do, especially since binary sexual orientation is barely even naturally-occurring in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Binary. As in two possibilities. As in, no room allowed for bisexuality or any other sort of sexual orientation aside from "gay" and "straight".

No, you're right, it is completely that I'm confused and should shut up until I figure it out, not that you aren't being clear. Not at all.

Quote
Dude, if you have no idea what I'm even saying, I suggest figuring it out before responding.

If I don't say anything, how am I supposed to figure out what your point is?
For example, you wrote:
Quote
The idea that binary sexual orientation gives anyone a realistic amount of "choice" makes me laugh, as do the ideas that we'd be better off with less diversity, or that sexual orientation, even if genetic, is controlled by some easily toggled mechanism.
In response to my suggesting that while heterosexuality gives a person one (not great) choice more than homosexuals, bisexuality is obviously the easy winner if what your looking for is maximizing choice potential. At no point did I say we as a whole would be better of with less diversity, at no point did I say it could be easily toggled. So, what, exactly, was your point?
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #461 on: March 30, 2011, 07:25:08 pm »

Thread got interesting. Let's see who rages.

Them's fightin' words!
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Lysabild

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #463 on: March 30, 2011, 07:28:18 pm »

Thread got interesting. Let's see who rages.

Them's fightin' words!

You want a piece? Come at me, bro!

*Delicately plucks a piece out of MW*
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Max White

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Re: What are your opinions on the "big issue" of today? (not a troll thread)
« Reply #464 on: March 30, 2011, 07:29:51 pm »

Thread got interesting. Let's see who rages.

Them's fightin' words!

You want a piece? Come at me, bro!

*Delicately plucks a piece out of MW*

Hey, umm, I have a date tonight, so I'm going to need that back some time.
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