Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Toaster]

I apologize for my low activity over the weekend- I was pretty busy RL.  That said:

I voted Heliman because he seemed off to me in a vague in undefined way.  I wanted to hear more from him, so I combined a RV and pressure vote, something I like to do midday D1 when I'm not sure.  [I prefer to think of it as "semi-random vote stage," as I almost never use complete randomness to target my RVs.]   Reading it back over (and reading further) my suspicion has faded, so I'll go ahead and unvote Heliman.


Heliman:

Heliman, I want to pick your brain next.  What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned?  How much self-defense do you think is too much?

The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.

As for the second question, it depends on the situation. The way I see it, as long as a bandwagon isn't forming against you there's no real reason that you should start to turtle. Votes against players tend to fall lazily like snow and blow away easily like dust in the wind, provided they have nothing to latch onto. However, if there is a bandwagon barreling toward my tender townie asshole, then I don't think there's such a thing as too much self-defense, because Town would be wasting a whole day if I didn't defend properly.

Fairly good responses.  Here's my IC-opinion on self defense:  Self defense is fine as long as it doesn't get in the way of your scum hunting.  If you focus on defense exclusively, you're not helping out.  Truly, the best defense is a good offense- if you can bring a convincing case on your target, people will stop voting you and start voting your target.

With regards to this post, do you not think you can sufficiently pressure someone without voting them?  What if you were going after two people at once?


Major:

Heliman, I want to pick your brain next.  What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned?  How much self-defense do you think is too much?

The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.

Putting my two cents in here. It does more than that - it may increase the townie's chance of being NK'd. It also allows the scum to pull out all sorts of WIFOM regarding the townie.

Could you give an example here?  I'm not sure what you mean.

Also, tell me your opinion on this statement:  The best thing a vanilla townie can do is convince scum they are the best NK target.

Now, I said this before:

Bdthemag should be active/online about now. If he hasn't posted by the next time I do, he's over-lurking.

And he hasn't posted. BD, if you do not post in the 24 hours after this post is posted, I'm swapping my vote to you. Lurkers aren't good for town. Well, unless Heliman keeps being scummy. Then the vote stays on him.

I don't like this.  It looks like you're setting yourself up to move your vote onto a target of convenience later here, and only scum wants convenient targets.

Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.

--SNIP--

PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon.  I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one.  So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.

This is very, very weak.  You say you think he's scum, but you're afraid of how the attack will make you look so you drop it.  Basically, you just admitted you're more interested in self-preservation than finding scum, which is very scummy.  Scum want to avoid scum tells.  Town wants to hang scum, and if they vote in a way that might be bandwagonny, so be it- the important thing is that you get your vote on scum.

If you vote someone you find scummy and you clearly articulate your reasons, no one is going to call it a bandwagon.

This post is also very questionable.  Why are you going to great lengths to defend Heliman, someone whom very recently you were voting?  You're doing it more here.


Breadbocks:  You need to be more specific when you make statements like this one:

If he doesn't post here soon, and explain the shit, you will be downgraded to a HoS, and he will get my vote.

Bdthmag, you walk a very fine line.

Who are "he" and "you?"  Why is BD walking a fine line?

This is half of a really good post.  To present a very solid case on someone, you need to cite several things they've done you perceive as scummy (the half you did) and then explain point-by-point why each one is scummy (the half you didn't do.)  Just quoting his posts alone isn't helpful- we can read the originals already.  You need to explain why they are scummy, and then give a concise summary.  Try again and explain yourself.


Crown:  I promised you a more specific answer, so here it is:
Right now, if Major didn't hang, I'd investigate him.  If he did and flipped scum, I'd be extremely suspicious of Heliman (due to association [Major keeps defending him]), so I'd go with him.  If he flipped town... probably someone I had no read on, like Jim or King of Eggs.  As doc, I'd probably protect Jim- I figure new scum would be more likely to go after the ICs as the perceived largest threats.

Question here: You say one of the three of Breadbocks, Heliman, and MajorS must be scum, which is fine.  You then vote Super for lurking and don't question any of the first three.  This does not follow.  You need to do something to decide if any of those first three are scum if you think it is one of them.  How are you planning to figure out which one it is?


Super:

I think TKoE needs to learn that mafia requires some time put into it, and that Breadbock seems suspicious, I don't know why, there's just something... bothering about him.

This is the point you start questioning Breadbocks to clear or confirm your suspicion of him.



In conclusion, Major Sephiroth is the most scummy right now for reasons cited above.  I believe I addressed everything to me, but if I missed something, smack me on the head and link/quote it.

[Supercharazad]

Breadbocks, If you were a mafia roleblocker, who would you target tonight?

[webadict]

Breadbocks, If you were a mafia roleblocker, who would you target tonight?

I'd like to point out that these are RVS style questions, which you should be moving away from at this point. Try focusing more on actual post content of the player, or if the player has very few posts, try getting him to post.

These questions themselves are very uninformative, and you learn more from people making attacks on other people. A terrible attack is something you want to be looking for. Attacks that are incredibly vague or passive are not good.

Just try pushing breadbocks by bringing up posts instead of just asking questions you will probably get no information out of.

[Toaster]

What Web said.

I admit I sometimes use RVS style questions on someone I have a bad feeling about with zero concrete evidence, but once it's past the first couple RL days and there's a good post volume to work from, you should ask questions specifically related to this game, not general "if you were X would you do Y" questions.  Find a post (or better, posts) that makes you wary of him and pick it apart.

[lordnincompoop]

Breadbocks, If you were a mafia roleblocker, who would you target tonight?

I'd like to point out that these are RVS style questions, which you should be moving away from at this point. Try focusing more on actual post content of the player, or if the player has very few posts, try getting him to post.

These questions themselves are very uninformative, and you learn more from people making attacks on other people. A terrible attack is something you want to be looking for. Attacks that are incredibly vague or passive are not good.

Just try pushing breadbocks by bringing up posts instead of just asking questions you will probably get no information out of.

Though your intentions are admirable, please refrain from posting in this thread if you're not playing.

[Ottofar]

Actually, since this is a beginner's game, I think everyone should be allowed to post as non-playing IC.
Constructively, like webbie did there.  After all, these are the games you play to learn.

[webadict]

Yeah, I'm not going to do that, LNCP. Not only is that counter to the whole BM concept, where all players are meant to learn and while the ICs are doing a good job, I will point out things I feel should be pointed out, because sometimes they aren't here or miss something.

So, yeah, no.

[IronyOwl]

Spoiler: Off-Topic (click to show/hide)

I just got the mental image of Lucifer, arrogant and beautiful, defiantly telling God to **** himself. I think Wuba would approve.

On-topic, I'm inclined to agree with webadict and Ottofar. It has the danger of turning into a trainwreck, of course, but getting spontaneous advice from multiple sources is a good thing, so long as it doesn't get too involved and it's good advice. In this case, for instance, I really do think it needed to be said, but nobody had said it yet.

[breadbocks]

Afternoon gents. I hope I've not gotten into too much trouble after I left- Oh dear. Well, off to the races!

Post 1: Yeah an RVS.
Post 2: He saw something suspicious and questioned it. Thoroughly. That deserves praise, not rolled eyeballs.
Post 3: The "U MAD?" has been explained. I put the idea in his head for that. It was also a pressuring vote, to see if he got angrier. He doesn't skip over Jim, look at the last section.
Post 4: The back and forth between him and Jim: His reason for the FoS gets taken out from under his feet - leaving him nowhere to go, hence "I don't know what to say." Also in there, he is not over-defending. He was questioned that many times, so he answered that many times.
Post 5: You're wrong. It's WIFOM. It's WIFOM out the wazoo, actually. I'm going to propose a scenario: Person A and Person B are questioning each other. Person C is scum. There's other town around. Person A then turns his attention to Person C. Person C ends up lynched. The scum COULD NK Person A - he's a good scumhunter. But they NK Person B. The remaining scum say "why wasn't Person A NK'd? He's the best scumhunter" and "Person A got Person B NK'd!". Person A calls them out as scum.  The town has to decide whether the scum would simply bus an ally, (like the scum are claiming) or that thw scum has a plan, (that Person A is right). There's no evidence either way, and it's down to speculation.
Wow that was long.
Post 6: Ever think that Heli was suspicious of BD BEFORE he said as such? Also, his main scumpick goes MIA, so he has to start on a new person. You give him that person to start on - and he pressures.
Post 7: Caution is a scumtell. Recklessness is a town tell. This is not guaranteed however, as I'm always cautious, for example. Being cautious as to where your vote goes is scummy play. Hell, I'm trying to be more aggressive and I still don't vote everywhere.
Post 8: The "King" of mafia said it's unreliable. And IIRC, that he think's it's not the best method. He didn't say the method was horrible and never to use it. He wants you mad right? And he has it.
Post 9: You claim he is only using a list of scumtells - I daresay all his arguements against me aren't scumtells alone.

I don't think these are too strong..  I tried to read these as if bread was town, but they still aren't too strong.

#1: If I left it off, people would question me about why I left it off.
#2: I suppose so. It's just the continued "Well I think you didn't say what you mean" after that had me predisposed against it. Looking back isn't always 20-20.
#3: And yet, afterwards, even after being rebuked about it, he tried to use it again. It makes no sense why, unless he was really desperate for a leg to walk on for getting a townie lynched.
#4: :I I don't no what to say.
See how much of a bullshit answer that is when you get called out? Yeah.
#5: But that example is slightly invalid. I would 100% of the time say person A wasn't targeted, because if he targeted a townie, the second scum could just bandwagon, and use the same evidence A did. Remember what the ICs said. The best scum is one who looks like he's scum hunting. As such it follows that a scum could play follow the leader for a quick ride of pretend scumhunting, which is why when somebody asked me about who I would protect as doc, I said the second best scumhunter, because they would be a danger with no tactical use, so the scum would want them dead.
#6: No, not really. He had completely slipped under notice, until I saw there were only 7 people posting. As for the MIA point, what are the odds a lurker could be weeded out by one vote when it was pretty effective until I finally saw it.
#7: I tend to agree, although there are times when the positions switch. Nobody wants to be the one who places the vote on a townie which the scum can then pounce on.
#8: You're right. He earned my ire. And now every word he posts will be considered for how it could or couldn't incriminate him further. And I never said it was completely useless, just less than useful.
#9: I didn't mean to imply that was all he was using, I was just trying to point out how poorly that would work out, and how he could better himself.

Now. Who's next?

Ah, crown is. OK, so here we have pointing out how much of a dumbass I've been ignore others while attacking Heliman. So I'll branch out at the end of this post.

Aaaaand.... back to Seph. I got to that line from the fact that IIRC, most if not all of the things he's attacked others of he's been guilty of himself.

After him comes Toaster. First off, yeah, pronouns are an ass in Mafia, but I use them so often it's a hard habit to break. The "he" was bd, and the "you" was Heliman. Also, thanks for the tips, I'll see if I have time to re-do it point by point. Just a thing I noticed, though, was that Crown said there was <=1 of us 3, not that >=1 of us three.

Super: Err.... a bit odd of a question, but if I was an RB, I'd try to block whoever I thought was the doc, and relay my suspicion of who the cop was to the rest of my team and have the biggest threat taken out.

Now that that is out of the way, Toaster, what do you think on the circle of me, Heli, and Seph?

[Heliman]

With regards to this post, do you not think you can sufficiently pressure someone without voting them? 

The way I see it is that while it's not a necessity, it never hurts to use it.

What if you were going after two people at once?

Actually, I was planning on going after two people at once before egg asked for another extension. I was planning on seeing what happened if I linked Egg and Major as partners because major seemed hesitant to vote him when he first pressed, and made no comment at all about the caps-lock. Oh well.

[Jim Groovester]

Unvote, breadbocks.

I have no idea what case you're trying to make against Heliman, and until I do, I'm going to vote you.

So come on, be clear. Just what do you find Heliman suspicious for? Summarize it for easy consumption.

Mod: v/la till 12:00AM the 31st GMT +10

Didn't the day get mod extended for you because of your previous leave of absence?

[ECrownofFire]

Toaster, I'm mostly not voting any of the three because really, they're doing a good enough job chasing each other around in circles anyway. I'd rather go after the active lurker for the time being. But that may quickly change with how the votes are falling. I need to read more around those three anyway.

[Toaster]

Breadbocks:  The three of you?

Major S:  Likely scum.  He's defending Heliman vehemently for no apparent reason, setting himself up with safe backout plans, and admitting to avoiding an attack for self-preservation.
Heliman:  Scummy by association to Major S.  Not worth pursuing until Major S flips, as I don't have much against him alone.
Breadbocks:  I don't understand your case on Heliman.  You linked his posts and provided no analysis, which isn't a case.  Please explain why those points are scummy.


Heliman:  Fair enough.

Be careful when creating scum teams early.  Without any flips, be sure your target is scummy by his own merits, and not due to others.  For example, Major S is making you look scummy by defending you so hard, but I'm ignoring that until his alignment is revealed as otherwise I don't really have anything on you.


Crown:  That's fair.  I can't really say anything more about that because that's a common D1 strategy for me- ignore the big fight and go after people I suspect that are less in the spotlight.


Jim:  Let's assume breadbocks explains his case well enough to satisfy you.  Who would likely be your next scum pick?

[Jim Groovester]

If that happens I'll have to thoroughly search the thread with a fine tooth comb. There's a lot of words being thrown around but I'm almost certain absolutely nothing's been said. And any scum tell by anybody here could just as easily be an honest mistake, because most of the players are active and intelligent but have no fucking clue what they're doing.

If I had to pick it would be major_sephiroth, for suspecting Heliman without any reasons. Or rather, being wrong about what he suspected Heliman for, but not dropping the suspicion.

But hell, there's crap like that going around for the three of them (breadbocks, Heliman, major_sephiroth), and it could just as easily be them flubbing around.

I know it's a pretty passive and reserved position, but that's how I see the game right now.

[Heliman]

But hell, there's crap like that going around for the three of them (breadbocks, Heliman, major_sephiroth), and it could just as easily be them flubbing around.

Flub, flub, flub,

But seriously now, back to Toaster:

Heliman:  Fair enough.

Be careful when creating scum teams early.  Without any flips, be sure your target is scummy by his own merits, and not due to others.  For example, Major S is making you look scummy by defending you so hard, but I'm ignoring that until his alignment is revealed as otherwise I don't really have anything on you.

His buddying is definitely off key, but the thing is I still can't get why he would do this if he was scum.

If he's scum trying to make me look scummy for a lynching by being overprotective, then he's only going to get himself lynched first, and if he flips scum it wouldn't matter if I get lynched the next night or not, because it would ultimately pro-town. And if he's a semi-barnacle town defending me, he should know that it's not like I need any defense from breadbocks, who hasn't even made a clear argument yet.

I know that looking too deep into the motivations of scum ultimately leads to a WIFOM scenario, but I can't see his reasoning behind all this.
Toaster, Any ideas?
Or would you care to tell us yourself Seph?