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[MDFification]

(Snip)

We should remember that magic is not a monolithic construct but a common and diverse idea from numerous cultures. Magic is an extremely varied subject across human mythology, and any system trying to simulate magic in a way more satisfying than D&D should account for that - instead of a single magic system, we need a generator that can make magic systems on the fly if magic is going to fit in with DF.

Supernatural influence in stories can be broken down into several rough categories, which can coexist with one another within a setting and overlap considerably in explaining the same phenomenon;

---

1. Intrinsic Magic: Magic is an inherent and inalienable quality of the caster (who can be a person or object), who themselves may be considered a supernatural phenomenon. No explanation is given for the supernatural qualities of the user, and it is not treated as necessary or possible to explain it. Magic like this is treated as a simple fact and uncritically accepted - you don't ask why the nature spirits exist or why Zeus can throw lighting bolts, they just do. This is actually quite easy to simulate, as it doesn't require explanation to be a satisfying addition to a narrative. Almost every setting with magic in it incorporates this depiction of magic to some extent.

Such magic can either be truly randomly determined or can follow some internal logic that is never communicated or intended to be communicated to the player. Indeed, there might be multiple systems of logic in play that are unrelated to one another but, since they coincide in the same individual, the player can't determine which is which.

2. Derivative Magic: Magic is something that is obtained from another being who is intrinsically magical. This can be a large variety of supernatural occurrences, like magic items, prophecies, curses or changes to the subject's own inherent qualities conditional to another being's decision. Magic in these systems is still inexplicable in of itself, but can be comprehended through understanding the relationship between the giver and receiver (again, which can be people or objects) of the supernatural phenomenon in question.

This kind of magic is difficult but feasible to simulate, as it's very similar to intrinsic magic but determinant on tracking complex relationships between entities (i.e. If Samson cuts his hair (meaning we have to now establish how and why his hair would be cut and work that into the game), the supernatural strength God bestowed upon him (for reasons established in some way) goes away).  It is however a daunting task.

3. Acquired Magic: Magic is something that can be learned and performed. The conditions for performing a certain piece of magic are pre-defined, discovered in some way, and then can be met by any actor who fulfills the necessary conditions. For example, if I build a doll stuffed with materials of inherent magical qualities and attach one of your hairs to it, I can control you.

This magic is easy to simulate but difficult to incorporate into a narrative in a satisfying way. The questions of why specific individuals are learning and using magic need to be resolved in setting-appropriate fashions, or else you run into the problem of 'Well, I'll just open a factory converting swords into +2 swords'. This is resolved in most narratives by the conditions for casting or learning magic being difficult to discover or inherently dangerous.

Uncontrollable Magic: Magic just is, and nothing you do influences it. Magic is a force of reality, like fate, that you cannot entirely understand or triumph over in any meaningful way; it must be worked around, not mastered.

I have no idea how easy or difficult it would be to simulate this.

---

Now, the vast majority of magical phenomenon we encounter in myth and literature is actually some combination of these categories, which makes things difficult as you need to create a system for generating all four and any combination thereof at the same time. It's easy to see how such a system could be shallow, buggy or immersion breaking if unrefined.

[Bumber]

...and if you miscast you lose your entire identity. so you get like amnesia.

I assumed it scrambles your personality.

[NW_Kohaku]

OK, I'm probably going to have to take some time to really respond to all of this

did you read the link I gave in the fotf?

I'm more for magic having an effect on the narrative.

And we can't forget the other half of the game, adventure mode.

Sorry, but no, I have yet to really give the essay (which is 37 pages, I'll point out) much more than a glance. I'll certainly try, though, as it's definitely interesting.

The point I have to keep coming back to, however, is that a computer program is a really lousy DM and an even worse author.  The sorts of things that a good DM can do with the really loose magic systems of games like Mage or Changeling are things that will be completely killed by their transition into dry mundanity.

And that's the thing I really want to stress - no matter how "strange" or "exotic" it seems to have any random magic system in this game as a hypothetical, the instant it's in the game, it will lose all novelty.

Basically, we are all munchkins playing with a really unimaginative and hyper-literal DM to whom rules lawyering has infinite effectiveness.  DF runs upon physics abuse through abuse of loopholes.  (No sooner did vampires appear than did players try to make fortresses composed entirely of vampires.) The strictness of the rules, therefore, is paramount.

Beyond that, if you're talking about Adventure Mode with Xenosynthesis, it still can exist, as well.  It just might use something much more abstract since you're dealing with the problem of magic being used while you're not nearby.

Xenosynthesis revolves around both the notion that magic is local, which means that if you have the capacity to cast spells that run on death sphere, for example, then a different area of the world with little death sphere magic may make casting the spell impossible or very taxing or require you take some sort of sacrificial item or creature as a "battery" to store your magic power into the voids in sphere magic you can control. 

It would also mean that the sorts of genocides adventurers are wont to perform would have a much greater impact upon the world in general, spreading or contracting sphere-heavy biomes.

[NW_Kohaku]

I think the kind of stuff Toady One is planning is already good enough. Did you watch http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural ? Just skip to the myth generator part and you'll get to see some examples of the magic planned. Stuff like being able to become full of the force permeating the world at the cost of getting a touch nauseated and a drop of blood, but allowing for additional spells. They could then turn into a plant by singing after becoming full of the force, or change their smell, or move water. Or with a different magic system they could shoot lightning at the cost of some flesh and becoming a bit more faded, or start a snowstorm with similar costs, or fall slower at the cost of becoming a bit more faded. All these sound like exactly what I wanted out of a Dwarf Fortress magic system. They all have some form of cost, a sometimes difficult, sometimes complicated procedure to perform them, and it's all mostly interesting effects, that aren't just combat abilities.

The thing is, those spells tend to seem... well, kind of arbitrary and stupid. (Presumably because they are totally arbitrary things thrown in as dummy text strings rather than real code that Toady has no intent of actually implementing...)

I can't help but think that turning into a plant is some kind of elaborate suicide spell, considering the way that DF tends to work, since there's no indication that a plant will retain a brain with the capacity to turn oneself back.  (Also, why plants? Isn't that an elf thing to turn yourself into?)

Many of these spells sound cheap (as in an in-game cost) for utterly random and arbitrary effects.  Especially in Fortress Mode, I suspect these will either have no AI support, the way that swimming or flying creatures are simply unsupported, or create tremendous problems with dwarves using potentially helpful magic in wildly stupid ways.  (Dwarven Axemaster: "Oh, you think you have me now, rutherer, you plant-munching fiend? Well, you may be confident in your blunt teeth and slow grinding bite against my impervious masterwork steel armor and monstrously powerful axe swing, but wait until I TURN INTO A RUTABEGA! WHAT THEN!" *poof* *rutherer chews on a rutabega that used to be an elite axedwarf and masterwork steel equipment that are now forever lost*)

Even in Adventurer Mode, if you track down the fell demon to his lair, and want to have a climactic showdown, then watching as his first move is to turn into a kumquat is going to be more than slightly anticlimactic. 

The reason why most games stick to combat effects is that those are pretty easy to adjudicate and balance.  A monster with an attack spell knows to only fire those at enemies, while healing spells are saved for friendlies.  Friend and enemy are boolean values with no ambiguity.  Moving water is much harder for an AI to figure out how to use properly.

Also, no, it's not "a different magic system".  You're talking about one magic system with different effects within that magic system. 

Making multiple magic systems would be an even worse idea, because each individual magic system is an additional layer of complexity and chance for game-breaking bugs for even less effort or content in any single one, and hence, less emergent gameplay value for any given system.

Besides that, "the force permeating the world" is meaningless without definition as to what that force actually constitutes or does. If Toady actually does create a system where he makes the forces permeating the world have rules and definitions, then that's basically what Xenosynthesis is supposed to be, anyway.

[vjmdhzgr]

I think the kind of stuff Toady One is planning is already good enough. Did you watch http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural ? Just skip to the myth generator part and you'll get to see some examples of the magic planned. Stuff like being able to become full of the force permeating the world at the cost of getting a touch nauseated and a drop of blood, but allowing for additional spells. They could then turn into a plant by singing after becoming full of the force, or change their smell, or move water. Or with a different magic system they could shoot lightning at the cost of some flesh and becoming a bit more faded, or start a snowstorm with similar costs, or fall slower at the cost of becoming a bit more faded. All these sound like exactly what I wanted out of a Dwarf Fortress magic system. They all have some form of cost, a sometimes difficult, sometimes complicated procedure to perform them, and it's all mostly interesting effects, that aren't just combat abilities.

The reason why most games stick to combat effects is that those are pretty easy to adjudicate and balance.  A monster with an attack spell knows to only fire those at enemies, while healing spells are saved for friendlies.  Friend and enemy are boolean values with no ambiguity.  Moving water is much harder for an AI to figure out how to use properly.

Also, no, it's not "a different magic system".  You're talking about one magic system with different effects within that magic system. 

Making multiple magic systems would be an even worse idea, because each individual magic system is an additional layer of complexity and chance for game-breaking bugs for even less effort or content in any single one, and hence, less emergent gameplay value for any given system.

Besides that, "the force permeating the world" is meaningless without definition as to what that force actually constitutes or does. If Toady actually does create a system where he makes the forces permeating the world have rules and definitions, then that's basically what Xenosynthesis is supposed to be, anyway.

By different magic system, I meant a different world that had completely different myths that generated a completely different way that magic works.
I also think xenosynthesis is a pretty good idea, just that I think Toady kind of has the whole possible effects of magic, and downsides of magic, so all the debate going on about all these wild magic tables or whatever isn't really needed.

[Untrustedlife]

First off, I recommend you listen to the df talk on artifacts.

What toady WANTS in artifacts is magic that can be "reliable" and extremely useful but if you screw up with using it (and you will be told what you cannot do, or given warnings that you ave to sleuth out ) it could destroy your fortress.

Chaotic magic doesn't have to be unfair and arbitrary. And perhaps chaotic is as bad word for it.

I'll explain.
remember we will keep the "how common is magic" slider, and the "chaos" slider is seperate.

RIght now we have the mists in evil biomes that do horrible things to anyone who walks in them right?


A low chaos world would have magic that is perfectly reliable, (this is your magic is science type world), you would probably not have to worry about miscasts (or the punishment for a miscast is minimal (a harry potter style world with less miscasts, and less punishment for screwing with magic to do bad things) ) at best , and the cost of magic would be very numbers based, very minimal,  and very industrializable. A mage workshop pushing out flame swords and runestones at regular intervals from various herbs? Why the heck not.  No mystery at all about how magic works, it is perfectly understood fine (toady really doesnt want this as a default by the way. in fact he complained about it in the df talk I mentioned, he really wants it to be mysterious), but some players want this sort of thing.
this is level 0.


Level 1, would probably be more in line with harry potter, we have miscast potential and newbie mages would do it sometimes, luckily the punishments for miscasts is still minimal, but the magic would very occasionally be unpredictable (eg accidentally summoning a venomous snake instead of a rabbit, since you pushed the wrong block of time and space into the wrong position, newbie mistake), in this world since magic is slightly more dangerous (and therefore more powerful) you would probabbly get more dark mages hanging around making books that steal souls and such. (since the cost is still low on the caster they can get away with this)


Level 2,( the default) would be essentially what the magical system generator pushes out right now , magic has a defined cost, and there is the obvious potential for miscast and a few really powerful artifacts (like the loom that controls fate) hanging out. It is essentially sometimes slightly more chaotic with magical dew lakes and such lofting about occassionly. (see the talk he did at GDC), your dwarves would still create artifacts, they wouldn't be as powerful as the loom that controls fate, of course)

Level 3, this is a higher chaos then medium, the cost/potential; for miscast would be greater and magic would sometimes be a bit more unreliable (Potential for the spell to do something slightly different then what you expected, instead of just failing, for example if you animate furniture and usually it is your minion, it would work but the minion would sometimes instead attack you), and you probably less rarely have raw magical power wafting about in clouds in magic biomes(since magic is slightly more "raw" in this universe) (more common then the current evil biomes, and slightly more common/slightlyt more powerful artifacts, and your fort would get these kinds of artifacts from dwarves aswell.

AT the highest level of chaotic magic (like the highest level of magic, which completely randomizes everything or the lowest, where only humans and a fake god exist)  You would probably end up with magic in its "raw" form wafting about the world in mists alot more often, in the specific "magical" biomes with weird creatures (the amount of those that exist would be dependent on the "how magical is your world slider)  there would be people who can utilize it (reliably for the most part) but they would be rare and dangerous(because the spells would be very powerful/dangerous at this level) (and a good asset for defending a fort, despite the danger) , we would have artifacts that are effectively wmds about the world, with people seeking them out to perhaps, hide or even destroy them. (artifact seakers and artifact seaking quests will be in the next version of dwarf fortress regardless , that is part of the plan already, so the potential is there)  (as would all other features of a chaotic magical world, for example at low magic high chaos, you probably wouldn't even have the magical mists, but only a small amount of the aforementioned wmd(if used improperly) artifacts around that people are seeking out, in order to hide or destroy or use them, this is a narrative function (by the way all artifacts at this level are as powerful as the most powerful artifacts at level 3) , an adventurer could start working for one of these organizations, for example, and if your fort somehow acquires one of the artifacts, it could probably be used reliably, to help your fort, and of course you would be punished for misuse, and people would start coming to your fort to try and take the artifact from you, perhaps even using armies.  ) , which again is a narrative function",  the level to which this exists would be dependent on the magical slider obviously.
this is level 4



Watch that GDC talk to see what I am talking about, that slider that's already there has extremes that not many people like either (on the two lowest settings and you dont even get dwarves!) (and on the highest)

Quoting post from earlier so nw can see it( if you already did I apologize )

[Untrustedlife]

I think the kind of stuff Toady One is planning is already good enough. Did you watch http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Practices-in-Procedural ? Just skip to the myth generator part and you'll get to see some examples of the magic planned. Stuff like being able to become full of the force permeating the world at the cost of getting a touch nauseated and a drop of blood, but allowing for additional spells. They could then turn into a plant by singing after becoming full of the force, or change their smell, or move water. Or with a different magic system they could shoot lightning at the cost of some flesh and becoming a bit more faded, or start a snowstorm with similar costs, or fall slower at the cost of becoming a bit more faded. All these sound like exactly what I wanted out of a Dwarf Fortress magic system. They all have some form of cost, a sometimes difficult, sometimes complicated procedure to perform them, and it's all mostly interesting effects, that aren't just combat abilities.

The thing is, those spells tend to seem... well, kind of arbitrary and stupid. (Presumably because they are totally arbitrary things thrown in as dummy text strings rather than real code that Toady has no intent of actually implementing...)

I can't help but think that turning into a plant is some kind of elaborate suicide spell, considering the way that DF tends to work, since there's no indication that a plant will retain a brain with the capacity to turn oneself back.  (Also, why plants? Isn't that an elf thing to turn yourself into?)

Many of these spells sound cheap (as in an in-game cost) for utterly random and arbitrary effects.  Especially in Fortress Mode, I suspect these will either have no AI support, the way that swimming or flying creatures are simply unsupported, or create tremendous problems with dwarves using potentially helpful magic in wildly stupid ways.  (Dwarven Axemaster: "Oh, you think you have me now, rutherer, you plant-munching fiend? Well, you may be confident in your blunt teeth and slow grinding bite against my impervious masterwork steel armor and monstrously powerful axe swing, but wait until I TURN INTO A RUTABEGA! WHAT THEN!" *poof* *rutherer chews on a rutabega that used to be an elite axedwarf and masterwork steel equipment that are now forever lost*)

Even in Adventurer Mode, if you track down the fell demon to his lair, and want to have a climactic showdown, then watching as his first move is to turn into a kumquat is going to be more than slightly anticlimactic. 

The reason why most games stick to combat effects is that those are pretty easy to adjudicate and balance.  A monster with an attack spell knows to only fire those at enemies, while healing spells are saved for friendlies.  Friend and enemy are boolean values with no ambiguity.  Moving water is much harder for an AI to figure out how to use properly.

Also, no, it's not "a different magic system".  You're talking about one magic system with different effects within that magic system. 

Making multiple magic systems would be an even worse idea, because each individual magic system is an additional layer of complexity and chance for game-breaking bugs for even less effort or content in any single one, and hence, less emergent gameplay value for any given system.

Besides that, "the force permeating the world" is meaningless without definition as to what that force actually constitutes or does. If Toady actually does create a system where he makes the forces permeating the world have rules and definitions, then that's basically what Xenosynthesis is supposed to be, anyway.

About "creating a new magic system" the magic systems will already be procedurally generated on a per world basis as shows the myth generator. With a slider for how crazy you want it. So it will be there already, so why not give it more potential.

Toady mentioned that they were unbalanced (it's a prototype)  of course he will write ai to use it the procedural magic systems have always been a big part of the plan. Read cado's magical journey.


In one screenshot the magic system was literally based in rolling (hard to create/aquire) magical dice .Which is hilarious.And it sounds like something straight from terry pratchett.  Albeit  Unbalanced but hopefully we have some control over that (chaotic magic slider again) It reminded me of one of the boatmurdered overseers.Only certain magic in the world actually worked that way though. (it creates magic objects (like runestones, or in this case die) and like dwarf specific magic was based on something else)

They were called "dark die"

[NW_Kohaku]

Quoting post from earlier so nw seed it( if you already did I apologize )

Yes, I "seed it". 

Give me a break, I'm having to write several pages in response to each question while, you know, having to do things outside the house sometimes.  I'm going to respond eventually.

Also, to save everyone the trouble of having this thread consist 99% of quoting the same giant blocks of text back at people, could you make sure you trim down quotes?

[Untrustedlife]

Quoting post from earlier so nw seed it( if you already did I apologize )

snip

NW, i'm just enjoying discussing the possibilities of magic. No need to get salty . I am surprised I didnt notice that typo. its fixed now, (even though it doesnt matter hehe)

[NW_Kohaku]

NW, i'm just enjoying discussing the possibilities of magic. No need to get salty . I am surprised I didnt notice that typo. its fixed now, (even though it doesnt matter hehe)

Perhaps you should take more time considering your posts than posting if you're so insistent that I respond to them all.  You are posting multiple spur-of-the-moment one-sentence responses to every multi-paragraph response I make. 

Already there are people saying they can't be bothered to read through 13 pages of text, so bloating it with this sort of nonsense only aggravates that problem while adding no useful content.

[Untrustedlife]

NW, i'm just enjoying discussing the possibilities of magic. No need to get salty . I am surprised I didnt notice that typo. its fixed now, (even though it doesnt matter hehe)

Perhaps you should take more time considering your posts than posting if you're so insistent that I respond to them all.  You are posting multiple spur-of-the-moment one-sentence responses to every multi-paragraph response I make. 

Already there are people saying they can't be bothered to read through 13 pages of text, so bloating it with this sort of nonsense only aggravates that problem while adding no useful content.

Seriously?
I am not getting salty with you am I? why do you have to do that to me?

I wrote a very big response, which you have yet to respond to.

In fact you have yet to respond to many of my points. Instead choosing to respond to the posts I made that were small. (yeah i linked the other quote, but you completely ignored the paragraph long post right before yours, that talked about the procedural magic systems that are already being created by toadys algorithm)

Its not nonsense. In fact its quite well thought out.

Many of these spells sound cheap (as in an in-game cost) for utterly random and arbitrary effects.  Especially in Fortress Mode, I suspect these will either have no AI support, the way that swimming or flying creatures are simply unsupported, or create tremendous problems with dwarves using potentially helpful magic in wildly stupid ways.  (Dwarven Axemaster: "Oh, you think you have me now, rutherer, you plant-munching fiend? Well, you may be confident in your blunt teeth and slow grinding bite against my impervious masterwork steel armor and monstrously powerful axe swing, but wait until I TURN INTO A RUTABEGA! WHAT THEN!" *poof* *rutherer chews on a rutabega that used to be an elite axedwarf and masterwork steel equipment that are now forever lost*)

Take this for example, you argue that "oh the ai cant support that right now" But that doesn't mean toady can't write AI that does support it. Yes it will take time, yes it might be silly at first (like has happened in the past) , but once you have ai for "turning into a plant" you can use it for other things, like turning into a rodent, or turning into a stone, all of which are planned. (see vampires turning into bats, which is planned but not added yet)  (SO I don't just mean plants here, they are just a example)

And that's the thing I really want to stress - no matter how "strange" or "exotic" it seems to have any random magic system in this game as a hypothetical, the instant it's in the game, it will lose all novelty.

And how is this an argument for not doing it?

I can't help but think that turning into a plant is some kind of elaborate suicide spell, considering the way that DF tends to work, since there's no indication that a plant will retain a brain with the capacity to turn oneself back.  (Also, why plants? Isn't that an elf thing to turn yourself into?)

I have a feeling that if it was in its kind of like illusion magic, eg you are still yourself, you just look like  a plant or something. But yeah it is rather elven isn't it.

We have no idea whether  it will kill you though, all we have is a text dump and an incomplete prototype, so maybe it will work that way(if he ever adds it at all) (though i dont see why you would do it that way) , its more likely you would retain your brain (or at least your "soul" object (which is the data structure holds mental attributes in dwarf fortress) and be able to make decisions.) when you transform into a thing Toady did mention that you can put the soul object in an item (though he hasnt used it for that yet) perhaps turning into plants is what that is for. (not just plants obviously)

Also, no, it's not "a different magic system".  You're talking about one magic system with different effects within that magic system. 

Making multiple magic systems would be an even worse idea, because each individual magic system is an additional layer of complexity and chance for game-breaking bugs for even less effort or content in any single one, and hence, less emergent gameplay value for any given system.

Besides that, "the force permeating the world" is meaningless without definition as to what that force actually constitutes or does. If Toady actually does create a system where he makes the forces permeating the world have rules and definitions, then that's basically what Xenosynthesis is supposed to be, anyway.

(this section has been edited to clarify what I mean, since I originally posted it)
I responded to this for the most part however lets get something straight I never said I didn't like the idea of "xenosynthesis", I came here to discus magic, since you linked it as a potential place to discuss it.

In fact I think the idea is rather interesting, its just that there are other ways of doing things you know.

I don't want "multiple magic systems" either (eg same general idea toadys already running with, (which they all follow, casting a  spell costs something and it makes you more faded or you lose memories " whatever it generates.)
I do however want to be able to choose what it focuses on, for example we will have floating primordial dew (magic biomes) I want to be able to allow for greater amounts of magical biomes , less other magic , and more powerful artifacts, stuff like that. (stuff like we currently have in the advanced world gen parameters)

Sphere based regions have been mentioned as a possibility , toady  says they plan to make the whole "it permeates" "it sponataneusly creates" things much more succinct and less vague though. Perhaps sphere based regions will be specifically for alternate planes (he mentioned that in the df talk on the subject) , but that doesnt mean it cant be expanded to the larger world. And its  a potential magic system, but I don't see why it should be limited to just that. Especially since he is already clearly working on an algorithm for generating (at least) text descriptions of magic systems that are wildly different from it. Algorithms are built so that they can be transferred, since he has the algorithm now, he can port it to dwarf fortress and make it actually work, thereby the work pertaining to generating them is already taken care of.

Xenosynthesis revolves around both the notion that magic is local, which means that if you have the capacity to cast spells that run on death sphere, for example, then a different area of the world with little death sphere magic may make casting the spell impossible or very taxing or require you take some sort of sacrificial item or creature as a "battery" to store your magic power into the voids in sphere magic you can control. 

FOr example, I personally love this idea, and the idea of the thread,  but that doesn't mean we cant think about other possibilities!

By different magic system, I meant a different world that had completely different myths that generated a completely different way that magic works.
I also think xenosynthesis is a pretty good idea, just that I think Toady kind of has the whole possible effects of magic, and downsides of magic, so all the debate going on about all these wild magic tables or whatever isn't really needed.

I agree that xenosynthesis works, and the whole "different magic system"  thing.

Despite the fact that toady has it planned out (2000 different written out items)  I think discussions promote good design so toady can see what we say and be like "oh i never thought of that" for example the kumquat thing nw mentioned, I also just like discussing possibilities with people, though It is  a shame when someone thinks you are attacking them by questioning their judgement.

[crazyabe]

PTW

[Untrustedlife]

(updated earlier reply)

[Untrustedlife]

(Snip)

Snipped, but the general idea is that mdFiction mentions various kinds of magic. And what myths say about them

It would require work, but :

The prototype mentions "blood lines" so that sounds like your Intrinsic Magic


Your Derivative Magic could be pulled off by allowing the caster to grant new interactions to the user (kind of like how necros get their slabs) , and again it seems to be in the proptotype (with magical spirits granting people the ability to do spells)
And the fact that you could (if the prototype was fully implemented in the game)  acquire rune stones and such by carving under magical dew or carving from a magical material, dice and rune-stones and such)

Your  Acquired Magic seems to again. have an analogue in the game right now, people can learn from people by necromancy and other secrets by being their apprentices, I have a feeling this would carry over to "post-magic-generator" df aswell.

Uncontrollable Magic, is something like the evil clouds in evil regions, except the effects would be more random and unpredictable, which again, seems to be doable. (though people will figure out how to exploit it, inavriably), it also again has an analogue in the prototype, floating lakes of primordial dew and such are mentioned.

So yes, it would require work, but toady seems to have taken them all into account



Xenosynthesis, which is what this thread is about, is kind of half "uncontrollable" and half "controllable" you know how it works and you exploit it but in exploiting it you actually effect what is happening in the regions around the world (because everything needs to be "balanced" which is a sweet idea. But I don't think it should be the only possibility. And I kind of love the way the prototype is looking and want that in my life.

[Untrustedlife]

-snip-

First forgive me for not reading the entire thread but I followed the fotf link.


Now on to the topic at hand, I think that part of the problem from what I've read is that you think of magic with only concern of how it can benefit and improve society e.g. fortress mode with question of its use and utility for the overseer where as I think of magic for how it can benefit and improve the individual e.g. adventure mode with question of how much chaos I can sow and rules I can break.

You see a spell to conjure food as a gimmick and in fortress mode it would be but in adventure mode it could save you from starvation or remove the need to carry food supplies all together which is a great boon in my eyes.

As one of the people who would like to see more adventure mode focused development I can only reinforce what Untrustedlife has said, don't forget that adventure mode is half of the game and that magic's use and utility in fortress mode is not the only concern.

As I stated above (but after the FotF redirect), I believe there to be several flavors of magic, with utility magic falling outside of the scope of field magic, which I think is the topic of this thread.
Fields aren't just something to be used and harnessed in fortress mode, but also a potential threat (or source of threats) to adapt to (and they would affect adventurers the same way). I personally don't care about adventure mode, but for DF to be consistent, things have to work in a reasonable way in both modes.
Now, if you can just wave your hand and get food, why would anyone bother to learn to hunt or gather food? If it could be used as an emergency measure at some considerable cost if you run out of food I wouldn't object, but if it's easier and cheaper than going about it the normal way there is no reason for the normal way to be used at all by anyone (essentially the argument against industrialized magic). As far as I understand you can already make yourself food independent through undeath in adventure mode (and I think DFHack provides means to create arbitrary items, such as food, which you can think of as magic conjuration, if you like).
I wouldn't object to the the creation of summoning pebbles (or tokens, or whatever) that, when activated would summon an existing prepared item, provided these pebbles had a higher cost associated with them than just lugging stuff with you (such as having to prepare the food/item at home and then connect and freeze a summoning spell between the food and the pebble, where the magic costs more than just the time to wave your hands about and mutter a bit. On activation of this summoning, you'd again have to pay somehow. The costs would probably have to scale with weight, or there's no reason for caravans to use (costly) draft animals. Just send the caravan master (with optional guards) to the destination, summon the items, trade, and magic the things back again (minor logistic exercise for the reader to figure out how).
Such summoning magic could have some use in fortress mode for rapid correspondence (instead of, or in parallel with telepathic comms). It can obviously be weaponized as well.

Since all magical effects are said to have a consequence of some sort right now (unless under very specific situations)in the prototype So I presume it would have a consequence. Which would make it non-viable in fort mode, but viable in adventure mode in extreme situations.