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[Urist is dead tome]

"despite askot's argument"? what's my argument? i argued that the possibility of this harming toady's job makes it an issue even if one doesn't care much for property laws. i never implied that harming toady's income was a good thing

Read the disclaimer buddy.

[Max White]

Yea Urist, because people are sooo good at noticing sarcasem, that there is no way anybody could have misread such a post...

[Urist is dead tome]

Urist cancels life: Mentally checked out.

[Argembarger]

Still, I don't think Bob minds us talking about the pros and cons of the sandwich, especialy when Joe's sandwich may have a nice wrapper, but Bob's tastes so much better. You can try to copy a sandwich from taste, but without recipie, it will take some time, and by then Bob has decided to add avicado!

Bob's business model is slightly different though, he hands out sandwiches for free and lives off of donations to keep making his sandwiches for free. Bob is like a soup kitchen without any consistent funding.

Of course, Bob already realizes that his sandwiches only appeal to people with a very particular and discerning palate...

um

not sure where I'm going with this metaphor. It's kind of out of control.

[Andir]

Still, I don't think Bob minds us talking about the pros and cons of the sandwich, especialy when Joe's sandwich may have a nice wrapper, but Bob's tastes so much better. You can try to copy a sandwich from taste, but without recipie, it will take some time, and by then Bob has decided to add avicado!

Bob's business model is slightly different though, he hands out sandwiches for free and lives off of donations to keep making his sandwiches for free. Bob is like a soup kitchen without any consistent funding.

Of course, Bob already realizes that his sandwiches only appeal to people with a very particular and discerning palate...

um

not sure where I'm going with this metaphor. It's kind of out of control.

If another soup kitchen opens up down the street, will you wage war with them in legal battles and throwing pies?  What if that other soup kitchen starts charging for their soup?  You'll probably get some of your old patrons back...

I'm still not seeing a problem with this clone.  My whole dislike of IP is that if he comes up with an awesome feature, Toady should be able to implement it in his version and we all win.  If we start throwing around ownership of ideas, we (the players) lose features that may make our experience better because someone got greedy with their idea.

[G-Flex]

I'm still not seeing a problem with this clone.  My whole dislike of IP is that if he comes up with an awesome feature, Toady should be able to implement it in his version and we all win.  If we start throwing around ownership of ideas, we (the players) lose features that may make our experience better because someone got greedy with their idea.

What an amazing world you've invented for yourself.

The fact of the matter is that intellectual property laws encourage people to come up with ideas by actually making them marketable. If someone's year of work designing, implementing, and testing something can be made irrelevant by someone else capitalizing on it, then there is little incentive to design anything new in the first place.

[Soadreqm]

It's not like features fall under copyright, anyway. I don't think I've ever heard of a single instance of a game developer having to cut a feature because someone who thought of the feature first threatened them with legal action. You'd need patents for that.

[optimumtact]

It's not like features fall under copyright, anyway. I don't think I've ever heard of a single instance of a game developer having to cut a feature because someone who thought of the feature first threatened them with legal action. You'd need patents for that.

This is why I am glad that patents are not applicable to software in New Zealand, IP is a serious thing and should be treated with respect to allow people to develop goods/services but it's unfortunate so many choose to mishandle/misuse it.

[Max White]

If another soup kitchen opens up down the street, will you wage war with them in legal battles and throwing pies?  What if that other soup kitchen starts charging for their soup?  You'll probably get some of your old patrons back...

Well you have to remember that some people realy like a specific type of sandwich, so they would be more then willing to go and yell at the people down the street in order to increase traffic to a certain store. Because with more support to a certain kitchen, more donations tend to follow, and that means that the chefs in question can spend more time in the kitchen, trying to figure out if olives or jalapenos would go down better.

[Syraine]

<I can't find "Remove this message". I guess I am stuck with this post.>

[Andir]

If another soup kitchen opens up down the street, will you wage war with them in legal battles and throwing pies?  What if that other soup kitchen starts charging for their soup?  You'll probably get some of your old patrons back...

Well you have to remember that some people realy like a specific type of sandwich, so they would be more then willing to go and yell at the people down the street ...

Yeah, most people like to call them lunatics.  Could you imagine eating at this new soup kitchen down the street and someone comes into the kitchen and starts yelling at you?

Also: IP laws... do not apply to products that are not sold.

[G-Flex]

It's not like features fall under copyright, anyway. I don't think I've ever heard of a single instance of a game developer having to cut a feature because someone who thought of the feature first threatened them with legal action. You'd need patents for that.

Yeah, that's definitely a bit of a gray area, at the least, and I wouldn't expect a lawsuit to actually work. That being said, I'd still consider it unethical, depending on how much ripping off is going on. There are also "look and feel" claims, which are relatively hard to hold up, but which do exist and have worked before.

Also: IP laws... do not apply to products that are not sold.

Why not? In Toady's case, even though the product isn't sold, it is still responsible for his livelihood. There's also the possibility, for instance, that someone wants to hold onto it in case he wants to use it (or aspects of it) to make money in the future, or otherwise wants to distribute it on his own terms in whatever way, even if it isn't via direct financial exchange.

[Soadreqm]

Also: IP laws... do not apply to products that are not sold.

They most assuredly do. To be protected under copyright, a work must be published. Whether you are selling it in stores or giving away for free on the internet or spraypainting on someone else's wall doesn't matter. I can't remember how patents and trademarks work, though. They could be different.

Yeah, that's definitely a bit of a gray area, at the least, and I wouldn't expect a lawsuit to actually work. That being said, I'd still consider it unethical, depending on how much ripping off is going on. There are also "look and feel" claims, which are relatively hard to hold up, but which do exist and have worked before.

I was thinking more in terms of individual features, which I would say are pretty much okay to grab. Ripping off more could be justifiable, but starts looking kind of shady. Not that it's a good business strategy, anyway, considering how much work goes into the implementation rather than design.

[Andir]

Why not? In Toady's case, even though the product isn't sold, it is still responsible for his livelihood. There's also the possibility, for instance, that someone wants to hold onto it in case he wants to use it (or aspects of it) to make money in the future, or otherwise wants to distribute it on his own terms in whatever way, even if it isn't via direct financial exchange.

The only thing Toady can claim in copyright.  And even then, the extent of such claims extends only to the naming of items contained in said game.  A formal complaint would have to be filed by Toady and what's the net result?  DwarvesH renames the Plump Helmets to "Mushrooms."  Toady would have to legally patent the interface design constructs if he wanted to protect any of that, and I'm sure many people could find prior art to most of what DF consists of.  DF is mainly a conglomeration of previous ideas and concepts and so is DwarvesH.  Both games take prior concepts and expand upon them without wholesale copying of code.

It doesn't matter if he depends on this game for his livelihood unless he takes the proper legal steps to protect it.

[Max White]

Yeah, most people like to call them lunatics.  Could you imagine eating at this new soup kitchen down the street and someone comes into the kitchen and starts yelling at you?

You think that is bad... When a guy called Notch didn't come into work for a little while, then people who enjoyed ating ah he's cafe thew stones at the place! There are a lot of crazy people wandering around internet plaza.