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[palsch]

Of course, then you remember that it apparently took a Supreme Court decision to get the military to stop publicly advocating the use of Palestinian captives as human shields, and that the military would probably still be advocating it if not for that... well, small steps, right?

Digging into this, there was originally a ban on the use of human shields but the IDF wanted to keep using Palestinians, "Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations." Basically they wanted to be able to send Palestinian messengers (likely forced, although that's not specified) into enemy strongholds ahead of a military operation. So not the traditional meat shield application, but still forcing civilians into a military role.

[GlyphGryph]

Also, for anyone interested in learning more (Greatorder, lots of informative stuff here if you want more information), I'm gonna quote someone elses post from elsewhere where they pulled a lot of stuff together because its good.

    For an in-depth debunking of the common claim that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and that they walked away from an offer for a Palestinian state, Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David is a good read, compiling a number of interviews with insiders in the negotiations.

Saree Makdisi's Palestine Inside Out: An Everyday Occupation is a good account of life in the West Bank for Palestinians under occupation, and helps explain why the occupation is creating militancy among the Palestinians. Despite the barbarity of military actions like the one currently devastating the Gaza Strip, the day-to-day oppression of the Palestinians is equally responsible for the state of the conflict.

    For an account of the settlers, their historic and contemporary role in Israeli politics, and the effects they have on the West Bank, Zertal and Eldar's Lords of the Land: The War Over Israel's Settlements in the Occupied Territories, 1967-2007 is an extremely good account of the effects they have had on the conflict, their role in Israeli domestic politics, and so on.

    For an account of the settlers, their historic and contemporary role in Israeli politics, and the effects they have on the West Bank, Zertal and Eldar's Lords of the Land: The War Over Israel's Settlements in the Occupied Territories, 1967-2007 is an extremely good account of the effects they have had on the conflict, their role in Israeli domestic politics, and so on.

For an account of the history of the conflict, there are two great books on the topic. The first, David Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East provides a history of European intervention in the region. While not super-useful for understanding the conflict in general, it provides some important background information as to how we arrived at this point that is fundamental to understanding some of the nuances of the conflict, and it reads a lot like the script for a Coen Brothers dark (dark, dark) comedy. The second, Avi Schlaim's The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World provides information that is absolutely essential to understanding the conflict. If you are going to read only a single book on the topic, it should be this one. An updated edition is coming out in October, though, so you might want to get your copy from the library in the meantime. If you're interested in some information disputing the "Where was the Palestinians FLAG?!?" bullshit that crops up from time-to-time, you may be interested in George Antonius' 1939 book The Arab Awakening: The Story of the Arab National Movement, which provides an account of Arab nationalism that predates Israel's foundation.

Norman Finkelstein has written a number of really good books on the topic, but This Time We Went Too Far: Truth and Consequences of the Gaza Invasion might be of particular interest; it compiles information from a number of sources on the topic, most importantly the UN-commissioned Goldstone Report.

I've seen the anti-Palestinian camp casually dismiss Robert Fisk, but Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon was an absolutely incredible account of the invasion of Lebanon in my opinion, and it debunks a number of common myths surrounding the attack.

This is ignoring some of the more "classic" texts on the subject, from Chomsky and Said in particular, but it's a good starting point for anyone looking to have a solid grasp of what's happening.

EDIT: I didn't include him because Sushi in Yiddish already mentioned his work, but for those of you who are unfamiliar with Joe Sacco, his 'graphic journalism' is incredible stuff. Topical to Israel/Palestine are Palestine and Footnotes from Gaza[/url], both of which are incredible reads and landmarks in comics journalism.

[GlyphGryph]

Digging into this, there was originally a ban on the use of human shields but the IDF wanted to keep using Palestinians, "Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations." Basically they wanted to be able to send Palestinian messengers (likely forced, although that's not specified) into enemy strongholds ahead of a military operation. So not the traditional meat shield application, but still forcing civilians into a military role.

Thanks for the info.

[GavJ]

He is talking about a demilitarized zone inspected by international forces, like israel proposed ages ago.

Sure. Gaza AND Israel being de-militarized and inspected by international forces would be a fine solution by me.

[Leafsnail]

After an incredibly bloody day with a total of 100 fatalities (13 of them IDF) Hamas claims to have captured an Israeli soldier.  This could be something of a game-changer.

To be honest I'm struggling to see what the point of this ground offensive was, all it seems to have done is increase the bloodshed, especially on the Israeli side.

[Sheb]

Yeah, I agree with you on that one. Even if your goal was to minimize Israeli death, not giving a shit about Palestinian lives, this operation was a total failure, with more people dying in since the couple weeks of escalation that since the last attack on Gaza two years ago.

And it's not like the argument that Hamas couldn't be allowed to have its tunnel hold water: Hezbollah is no fan of Israel and has spent most of the last decades amassing a huge stockpile of weapons, and Israel is living just fine with it.

[palsch]

And it's not like the argument that Hamas couldn't be allowed to have its tunnel hold water: Hezbollah is no fan of Israel and has spent most of the last decades amassing a huge stockpile of weapons, and Israel is living just fine with it.

Erm, this is the purpose of the tunnels in question.

The Israel Defense Forces said Saturday's deadly militant raid began when Hamas fighters entered the country dressed in IDF uniforms through a tunnel leading into an agricultural field and set out toward nearby Kibbutz Ein Hashlosha. They then reached a patrol jeep that they attacked with gunfire and antitank missile. Hamas said 13 fighters participated in the raid and one was killed. The dead fighter wasn't identified.

The dead Israeli soldiers were a 20-year-old sergeant named Adar Bersano and a 45-year-old major in the reserves named Amotz Greenberg, the military said.

Hamas fighters entered Israel again later Saturday, this time with tranquilizers and handcuffs to abduct Israelis, the military said, adding that two militants were killed in second attack, which was repulsed without Israeli casualties.

Hamas responded on Saturday praising its fighters in the operation. "We have given a harsh lesson to the Zionist enemy within the chain of surprises which we promised our citizens and nation,'' said a statement from the Hamas military wing. "It's so they can imagine what will happen to their soldiers if they step on the lands of liberated Gaza with their feet."

The original escalation was after they stopped a similar attack on Thursday.

Saying they should be allowed these tunnels is saying that Hamas in particular should be given the ability to bypass Israeli security and immigration checks unimpeded. I don't think that is quite reasonable...

[Leafsnail]

The "terror tunnels" can be dealt with from the Israeli side of the border though, without a ground invasion of Gaza.

[GavJ]

The "terror tunnels" can be dealt with from the Israeli side of the border though, without a ground invasion of Gaza.

This. The tunnels are useless until they cross the border, at which point it's in Israeli turf for them to just dismantle or deal with already...

[Sheb]

I know that those tunnels are, in their own ways, weapons of war against Israel. It's just that the fact that your enemy is armed doesn't mean you cannot live alongside it.

[scriver]

I assumed the tunnels in question were the smuggletunnels on the Gaza-Egypt border.

[alway]

In other news: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28397207

Iran has turned all of its enriched uranium closest to the level needed to make nuclear arms into more harmless forms, the UN nuclear agency says.

[palsch]

The "terror tunnels" can be dealt with from the Israeli side of the border though, without a ground invasion of Gaza.

I didn't say they justified a ground invasion, although realistically Israel can't expect to play insurgent whack-a-mole without accepting some level of casualties. Of the three attempts to use the tunnels reported in Israeli media in the last week, one was successful and killed two Israelis. If there was a substantial push in that direction I doubt inaction (or a purely reactive response) would be accepted by the Israeli population.

I know that those tunnels are, in their own ways, weapons of war against Israel. It's just that the fact that your enemy is armed doesn't mean you cannot live alongside it.

I'm not quite sure what your position here actually is. You seem to be saying that Hamas should be allowed to keep these tunnels in Israel. I doubt that you mean that, but it's certainly the plainest meaning of your words.

I assumed the tunnels in question were the smuggletunnels on the Gaza-Egypt border.

Nah, those are dealt with by the Egyptian government these days. Prior to the 2005 withdrawal the IDF demolished homes along the border to create a buffer zone, making it harder to dig tunnels and easier to secure the border. But after the withdrawal they have only had a limited role in policing that border. During Operation Cast Lead there were attempts to bomb the tunnels, but reportedly this had little effect as it just buried the entrances which were later dug out again.

[GlyphGryph]

The Explosive, Inside Story of How John Kerry Built an Israel-Palestine Peace Plan—and Watched It Crumble
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

Erekat and Shtayyeh were steaming at new Israeli settlement plans that had been announced immediately after the second prisoner release days earlier, and at Netanyahu’s (false) claim in an interview that Abbas had accepted the new building in return for the prisoners.

    Erekat stormed into the room and slammed his briefcase on the table. In recent weeks, with the talks faltering, he had begun drafting a Palestinian Plan B that would include ending Fatah's six-year-old rift with Hamas and resuming the U.N. campaign—steps that would doom the process. Pointing at the briefcase, he declared: “This case contains our requests to join fifteen U.N. treaties and conventions, and my president will get my suggestion that he should sign them immediately if you say it was prisoners for settlements. And if he doesn’t approve it, I will resign tonight.”

    “You can’t do this,” Livni said, raising her voice. “This is not what we agreed on.”

    “What we agreed on was prisoners for no-U.N., not prisoners for settlements,” he barked.

[...]

    As Livni listened to Erekat complain about his political problems, something inside her snapped. “Do you think this is easy for me?” she shouted. She recited a litany of some of the worst Palestinian prisoners that Israel was releasing for the sake of the talks: one who had murdered an elderly Holocaust survivor, another who had stabbed two teenagers, yet another who had hurled a firebomb at a bus, killing a mother and her children. “These are your heroes,” she said, disdainfully. “I don’t know why they are your heroes, but I pushed to release them to get these talks started so we could get a peace deal, so if I can do it, you can accept a few houses. Houses can be demolished. We can’t put those murderers back in jail, and I can’t get back three lives that were just taken.”

[smjjames]

In other news: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28397207

Iran has turned all of its enriched uranium closest to the level needed to make nuclear arms into more harmless forms, the UN nuclear agency says.

If they're true to their word, then that's progress.

The Explosive, Inside Story of How John Kerry Built an Israel-Palestine Peace Plan—and Watched It Crumble
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

Erekat and Shtayyeh were steaming at new Israeli settlement plans that had been announced immediately after the second prisoner release days earlier, and at Netanyahu’s (false) claim in an interview that Abbas had accepted the new building in return for the prisoners.

    Erekat stormed into the room and slammed his briefcase on the table. In recent weeks, with the talks faltering, he had begun drafting a Palestinian Plan B that would include ending Fatah's six-year-old rift with Hamas and resuming the U.N. campaign—steps that would doom the process. Pointing at the briefcase, he declared: “This case contains our requests to join fifteen U.N. treaties and conventions, and my president will get my suggestion that he should sign them immediately if you say it was prisoners for settlements. And if he doesn’t approve it, I will resign tonight.”

    “You can’t do this,” Livni said, raising her voice. “This is not what we agreed on.”

    “What we agreed on was prisoners for no-U.N., not prisoners for settlements,” he barked.

[...]

    As Livni listened to Erekat complain about his political problems, something inside her snapped. “Do you think this is easy for me?” she shouted. She recited a litany of some of the worst Palestinian prisoners that Israel was releasing for the sake of the talks: one who had murdered an elderly Holocaust survivor, another who had stabbed two teenagers, yet another who had hurled a firebomb at a bus, killing a mother and her children. “These are your heroes,” she said, disdainfully. “I don’t know why they are your heroes, but I pushed to release them to get these talks started so we could get a peace deal, so if I can do it, you can accept a few houses. Houses can be demolished. We can’t put those murderers back in jail, and I can’t get back three lives that were just taken.”

The last paragraph in that pretty much sums the whole problem up.

"“I see it from a mathematical point of view,” said Avi Dichter, the former chief of Israel’s Shin Bet intelligence agency. “The American effort will always be multiplied by the amount of trust between the two leaders. So if Kerry's pressure represents the number five, and then Obama's help brings the American effort to ten, it really doesn't matter. You’re still multiplying it by zero. The final result will always be zero.”"